Couldn't find anything other than the Duc computer w/ optional acoustic p/up is required.
Will a guitar tuner or somthing work? What do you guys do?
Hate going to the local dealer- won't see it again for months. Anyone know if Richmond (VA) Superbike has one still?
Quote from: J.P. on October 20, 2008, 09:25:46 AM
Couldn't find anything other than the Duc computer w/ optional acoustic p/up is required.
Will a guitar tuner or somthing work? What do you guys do?
Hate going to the local dealer- won't see it again for months. Anyone know if Richmond (VA) Superbike has one still?
Computer with a mic will work fine. The guitar tuner... whats the lowest note it can detect? I would think ~100hz is pretty low maybe a bass tuner would do better? or a bass and guitar tuner? or really, even a cheaper option would to buy a tuning fork that is the recommend hurtz. which is 110 i believe.
Just use the 5mm allen wrench trick..I dont see what the big deal is about this acoustic garbage for a 2 valver..for a 4 valver I can see that as an a possibility with is multiple cam gears..
Personally if you go by the book (i.e. the ducati owners manual), an oil change is a dealer only job.
Quote from: EEL on October 20, 2008, 02:56:18 PM
Just use the 5mm allen wrench trick..I dont see what the big deal is about this acoustic garbage for a 2 valver..for a 4 valver I can see that as an a possibility with is multiple cam gears..
Personally if you go by the book (i.e. the ducati owners manual), an oil change is a dealer only job.
the problem is the 5mm trick *supposely* does not work for the DS1000.
After reading about others experiences on this forum (Thanks!) I bought a microphone from Radio Shack - says freq response is 100 hz on the low end - but it measures lower - and downloaded a couple of free programs. AudioAnalyser V1.9 and Voicesync ETG sound generator for testing the setup. I ran the tone generator and what it produced (belt low limit of 70hz worked fine) and what the sound analyzer measured agreed. There are probably better programs but these were free... I was able to measure my belts even though I couldn't hear them - front belt was right in the ballpark, rear belt measured about 70hz :(
Quote from: He Man on October 20, 2008, 07:24:57 PM
the problem is the 5mm trick *supposely* does not work for the DS1000.
And THATS the problem. "Supposedly"...Its tried and true method for almost 10 years. I'd hate to throw out a method based on supposition. If anyone has any concrete proof, please speak up.
Quote from: EEL on October 20, 2008, 10:16:36 PM
And THATS the problem. "Supposedly"...Its tried and true method for almost 10 years. I'd hate to throw out a method based on supposition. If anyone has any concrete proof, please speak up.
Is there a difference in terms of belt frequency from non DS1000 bikes?
Heres another thing we can do, if you get a dealer to tune it "correctly" then try the allen key trick on it, that allen key should be the correct size for all belts. just do it when the temp is cold or the bike is warmed up and make note of it.
Ive personally tried a 5mm key on mine, i couldn't get it in there for jack no shit. But that was factory 147hz tight. I got it retentioned so it should be at the "correct" value now.
To get some meaningful results from this thread....
Don't measure belt tension at some unknown 'warmed-up' temperature.
Let the bike sit overnight, so at least you've got some reasonable idea of what the temperature is.
You mentioned you couldn't get a 5mm key through with the factory 147 Hz tension.
Did you verify that 147 Hz?
What size key *did* fit?
What frequency are your belts tensioned at now?
What size key fits?
IMO, Ducati went with the 'frequency' method to make the tensioning consistent/repeatable, as all dealers would use the same testing instrument.
This takes the 'skill' and 'feel' out of the process.
Whether the official 'frequency' tension is correct or not seems debatable, as I've heard of a significant number of tensioner roller failures.
EEL has an excellent point, there's been thousands of 2v ducs run with the belts tensioned by the 5mm allen key method.
From what I've seen in the last 5+ years on TOB and here, belt failures are very rare, maybe 5 or so during that period, and IIRC most were probably due to foreign object damage.
Perhaps someone with a better memory can chime in.
If it was really super-critical, IMO there would be lots of belt failures.
good call on the cold engine.
I had a 3mm key fit through mine at the time. 5mm was impossible. i did not verify the freq of the belts. I did mine cold, this was back when i first bought the bike with less than 5,000 miles on it. The bike was sold to the previous owner as a demo bike with the 600 mile already done. I believe ducati sent out the new specs in 07. and the bike was sold with the 600 mile back in december06/jan 07. Thats my assumption on the old specs.
I really don't know what my belts are tensioned at right now. They seem to be tight enough to not slip. I will check what key fits tomorrow morning and post it up. i have a guitar tuner around the house somewhere and ill see if that works. I have a set of DS1000 timing belts that need to installed and i was just gonna buy a mic and use some PC software as suggested by chris on TOB
edit, found this link
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=29131
pretty good info about the new method.
I believe Ducati has reduced the frequency specs due to the bearing failures, and may be arount the area of 114 hz. Maybe someone could check with their dealer?
Quote from: EEL on October 20, 2008, 10:16:36 PM
And THATS the problem. "Supposedly"...Its tried and true method for almost 10 years. I'd hate to throw out a method based on supposition. If anyone has any concrete proof, please speak up.
According to my source. a Duc tech with 10 yrs experience, the 5mm key does not work on the 1000 cc motors.
The span between pulleys is totally different and will leave you with very loose belts.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 21, 2008, 05:14:27 AM
According to my source. a Duc tech with 10 yrs experience, the 5mm key does not work on the 1000 cc motors.
The span between pulleys is totally different and will leave you with very loose belts.
Ok, so i like speeddog's idea then. Lets find out what allen key works for the DS 1000 motor. Someone set it to the right frequency and post the equivalent allen key. Would be a great help to the board.
Here's some work done previously, maybe this will help:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11395.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11395.0)
Sorta funny finding this here just now. I've just finished doing the belts on an 06 S2R1K. did the horizontal one twice, as the tensioner's bearings cooked off and welded themselves to the tensioner, eating 75% of the belt beofre I cought the issue. Thanks God I cought it before it broke.
The problem with using the 'old' method here is that the old method is for the 'old' belts and while they use the same tensioner now (Ducati superceded the 1100DS tensioners for the 1000DS anyways, so I now have one vertical tensioner with bearings and clip, and horizontal tensioner with integrated bearing that is smaller diameter, but seems to werk fine) are in fact different belts, with undoubtedly different tollerences. It has been noted that the factory specs for the 1000DS motor would be WAY tight for the previous motors, but also that if you are to err at all, it's better to err on the side of loose. When I replaced my belts (both times) I used the 45* method, which leaves the belts too tight for a 5mm wrench, but they aren't wearing, and the bike seems happy. I'm sure they aren't wearing because in the next 300 miles I've checked the belts repeatedly to make sure I'm not losing anymore bearings. I can't afford now piston and heads just now.... So.... There's always the 45* method! And this, like virtually everything else within the 2V sphere is definately NOT a dealer only issue. in fact, belt replacement is about a 30 minute job, start to finish.
However... the paranoid part of me wants to know about this allen wrench thing... If someone had used the frequency method, and cares to slip increasingly large wrenches through till she/he's figured out which fits at ideal tolerence, please post up! I'm more than happy personally to check the 45* method against the frequency method.
Just as a warning, the 45* method IS the very issue SpeedDog was talking about. 45* where? What exactly is 45* when you are just using perception. 45* garauntees that everybody's tolerence will be a little different, but then, in speaking to a Ducati mechanic, I've been told that the range isn't soo absolute, and err loose if you care to err....
Whatever, I just say, work on your machine, learn it, love it.
I'm agreeing with Smokescreen that the 45ˆ method works. I replaced the belts on my M1000 using this method and have now done 13k miles on them. They are due for a new set but I'm not bothered about going a bit over the 12k miles so I'll do it in the winter.
I also agree with everyone who says that a 5mm key will not fit on the ds1000 engine- I checked after I fitted the belts and it was no more than 2mm.
I'm going to use the 45ˆ method again next time because it works for me and I'm not convinced that Ducati have finalised the 'frequency'method.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m205/Monster1000/Picture249Small.jpg)
Quote from: EEL on October 20, 2008, 10:16:36 PM
And THATS the problem. "Supposedly"...Its tried and true method for almost 10 years. I'd hate to throw out a method based on supposition. If anyone has any concrete proof, please speak up.
The problem with not setting the proper tension on any Ducati motor is the belt tension effects cam timing. There is no accurate enough method (in my opinion) without using the proper tool.
Why not do everything and bring the bike to the dealer so they can check the tension. If you've got it all ready to go it will only take 15-20 minuets to check tension and adjust properly. What is that $30? For that small amount of money I'd sure feel more comfortable for my own bikes - luckily I have access to the DDS!
Quote from: desmoworks on October 21, 2008, 03:00:46 PM
The problem with not setting the proper tension on any Ducati motor is the belt tension effects cam timing. There is no accurate enough method (in my opinion) without using the proper tool.
Why not do everything and bring the bike to the dealer so they can check the tension. If you've got it all ready to go it will only take 15-20 minuets to check tension and adjust properly. What is that $30? For that small amount of money I'd sure feel more comfortable for my own bikes - luckily I have access to the DDS!
thats all right if a dealer close , why dont you do us all a favor and adjust your belts too the right tension then see what size allen key fits
I had the tension set by the dealer on my S2R1k a few months ago. They used the harmonic device to set the tension for ~115 Hz. A few weeks later I opened it up to see how it measured mechanically. Could not fit a 5mm wrench, didn't bother to see how small the clearance was, but I'm guessing about 2 or 3 mm. The 45* twist was real close to right on, I would say that I could twist the belt a little more than 45*. I did the twist on both of the long runs between the idlers and the cam pulley, there was very little difference in terms of how much I could twist the belt. Going forward, I will also be using the 45* twist method.
Quote from: desmoworks on October 21, 2008, 03:00:46 PM
Why not do everything and bring the bike to the dealer so they can check the tension. If you've got it all ready to go it will only take 15-20 minuets to check tension and adjust properly. What is that $30? For that small amount of money I'd sure feel more comfortable for my own bikes - luckily I have access to the DDS!
The engine must be cold. That means leaving the bike overnight, which can be a PITA.
Quote from: desmoworks on October 21, 2008, 03:00:46 PM
The problem with not setting the proper tension on any Ducati motor is the belt tension effects cam timing. There is no accurate enough method (in my opinion) without using the proper tool.
I was discussing this with someone the other day. This may be wrong, lets just say I'm thinking out loud.....
It seems that the correct way to tension the belt is to lock the cam and crank into position, and then loosen the bolts that allow the cam pulley to rotate independently of the cam (like one would do to degree the cams). Set the tension, then retighten the bolts that couple the pulley to cam. This allows the tension to be set evenly on both sides of the cam pulley. If the pulley is not loosened prior to tensioning the belt, there will be some potential for the timing to change a little bit, because the tensioner will be trying to pull the belt tight on only one-half of the run (the run between the main pulley and one side of the cam pulley).
Does this make sense?
I swapped my S4 belts by lining up the timing marks, using the cam wheel spacer, and gauging with 5 mm allen key and the proverbial twist. I was a bit freaked out about it but my worries waned after riding and forgetting about it. 2k miles later I'm cool. Don't err on the side of too tight tho. Use LT Snyders' guide, shop manual, and Chris Kellys' index as a resource.
Quote from: Ivan on October 22, 2008, 12:35:25 PM
I was discussing this with someone the other day. This may be wrong, lets just say I'm thinking out loud.....
It seems that the correct way to tension the belt is to lock the cam and crank into position, and then loosen the bolts that allow the cam pulley to rotate independently of the cam (like one would do to degree the cams). Set the tension, then retighten the bolts that couple the pulley to cam. This allows the tension to be set evenly on both sides of the cam pulley. If the pulley is not loosened prior to tensioning the belt, there will be some potential for the timing to change a little bit, because the tensioner will be trying to pull the belt tight on only one-half of the run (the run between the main pulley and one side of the cam pulley).
Does this make sense?
That is exactly how it is done on ths 1000ds engine - the crank is set for comp on horizontal cyl and then both cams are locked by passing a 6mm dia bar through left side cam covers. Both belts can then be tensioned at this setting.
It
IS a diy job and no need to take it to any dealer.
Quote from: Jethro on October 22, 2008, 04:34:16 PM
That is exactly how it is done on ths 1000ds engine - the crank is set for comp on horizontal cyl and then both cams are locked by passing a 6mm dia bar through left side cam covers. Both belts can then be tensioned at this setting.
It IS a diy job and no need to take it to any dealer.
Thanks Jethro....Do you rely on the 6mm bar to hold the pulleys while you tighten/loosen the bolts that couple the pulley to the cam? Not having looked at the torque specs for the bolts that hold the pulleys to the cams, I have visions of the locking pins breaking-off inside the cams.
Ivan, here are a few pics to show things better. You set the crank at tdc compression for H cyl and lock both cams by removing blanking screws from left side cover plates and locating 6mm bar into locating slot in camshaft.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m205/Monster1000/lockhorizontalcamSmall.jpg)
Don't forget a bit of rag over spark plug hole or you could drop the coper washer in it.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m205/Monster1000/Picture215Small.jpg)
Here is a pic with left side cover removed to show the locating slot.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m205/Monster1000/Picture253Small.jpg)
Here is a pic showing how the 6mm bar locks the camshaft - set up with cover removed just to show the location but obviously you don't need to remove the cover. You leave the 6mm bar in place until you have tightened the three screws that lock the pulley. (http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m205/Monster1000/Picture254Small.jpg)
If you find a tightening torque for these screws then please post it because it isn't in my manual. So there it is - and you will maintain valve timing whatever method you use for belt tension. Another point is that although the V cyl isn't at TDC comp, the closing springs will not alter belt tension because the camshaft is locked so you can set both belts with this one crank setting.
You will always maintain timing unless you move a tooth. A loose belt will allow the timing to vary.
For anyone using a manual be aware that there is a spec (say 140Hz) to tighten the belts to while the crank and cams are locked with the tools. Then there is an operating spec that you back the belt tension down to (often around 80 for Ducati models, but it varies). When you take the locking tools off and loosen the belts up to the correct tension that is when you achieve correct timing.
Quote from: desmoworks on October 23, 2008, 10:00:36 AM
For anyone using a manual be aware that there is a spec (say 140Hz) to tighten the belts to while the crank and cams are locked with the tools. Then there is an operating spec that you back the belt tension down to (often around 80 for Ducati models, but it varies). When you take the locking tools off and loosen the belts up to the correct tension that is when you achieve correct timing.
That's not how to do it according to the Ducati workshop manual.
Quote from: Jethro on October 23, 2008, 10:08:58 AM
That's not how to do it according to the Ducati workshop manual.
That's what I'm saying. I'm at the Ducati training right now (I'm on lunch break). We just went through this yesterday. The manual tells how to set them with the tools installed, but there is a service bulletin on the correct Hz after the tools are removed. Ducati has charts (for dealers) that show the correct Hz wtih tools installed and uninstalled.
This is why it is a good idea to have a dealer do it... home mechanics aren't privy to all the info. They don't get service bulletins. There have probably been 10 bulletins on the new monster 696 already. There is a lot of info that comes out that isn't in the original service manual. They make the manual and don't revise and re-send it every time there is something new.
The point about the belt have an installation and operating tension is no secret. I hope you aren't running around with your belts at 140Hz and hope you haven't told others to do that?
Quote from: desmoworks on October 23, 2008, 10:15:24 AM
I hope you aren't running around with your belts at 140Hz and hope you haven't told others to do that?
Thanks for info and I haven't told anyone to use the Hz method to set their belts nor have I used that method myself. What I
have said is that I fitted new belts 13,000 miles ago using the 45ˆ twist method and it works for me. Before the 1000ds engine was introduced, thousands of guys set their belts using the allen key method and that worked for them. I am not impressed with the Hz method as Ducati don't appear to be able to make up their mind on the correct tension.
I am a bit more than a home mechanic - I am an engineer and have worked on engine design for 40 years. Belt tension is not that critical - it can be too tight or too loose but there is a range of tensions that work ok. During service the belt tension changes anyway but that is nothing to get alarmed about - although Ducati perhaps tell you there is.
I am quite happy to run my belts for another few thousand miles and will change them in the winter - also using the 45ˆ twist method.
Setting the belts with the Ducati tools to the specified spec then loosening to operating spec once tools are removed produce a very reliable result. Bruce verified it with a degree wheel on the 1000DS motor.
The Ducati spec allows +/- 5Hz so there is no perfect number. Like anything on a motor there is a tolerance it has to be in, but the "tension on assembly" and "tension after service" as Ducati refers to them are always farther apart than the acceptable range for one or the other.
For those without a dealer near or who just like to tinker it is definitely possible to use a laptop with quality microphone and tuning program to set tension at home... that would produce a reliable result unlike twisting belts and other methods where there is no actual measurable output. You measure roughly half way between the lay shaft pulley and the belt tensioner. Ducati has a tool to mount the measuring module for the DDS, but it will only work with the DDS. You will get a different readout by measuring different parts of the belt.
Guys, thanks for sharing all this info. This has been most helpful.
Quote from: desmoworks on October 23, 2008, 01:26:46 PM
Setting the belts with the Ducati tools to the specified spec then loosening to operating spec once tools are removed produce a very reliable result. Bruce verified it with a degree wheel on the 1000DS motor.
The Ducati spec allows +/- 5Hz so there is no perfect number. Like anything on a motor there is a tolerance it has to be in, but the "tension on assembly" and "tension after service" as Ducati refers to them are always farther apart than the acceptable range for one or the other.
For those without a dealer near or who just like to tinker it is definitely possible to use a laptop with quality microphone and tuning program to set tension at home... that would produce a reliable result unlike twisting belts and other methods where there is no actual measurable output. You measure roughly half way between the lay shaft pulley and the belt tensioner. Ducati has a tool to mount the measuring module for the DDS, but it will only work with the DDS. You will get a different readout by measuring different parts of the belt.
as a mechanic my self i agree with what your saying ,the locking of the cams should only be yoused to a help keep ever thing lined up while replaceing belts , but what i would like to know what NOW is the hz for the s2r 1000 cheers bazz
Quote from: desmoworks on October 23, 2008, 01:26:46 PM
Setting the belts with the Ducati tools to the specified spec then loosening to operating spec once tools are removed produce a very reliable result. Bruce verified it with a degree wheel on the 1000DS motor.
The Ducati spec allows +/- 5Hz so there is no perfect number. Like anything on a motor there is a tolerance it has to be in, but the "tension on assembly" and "tension after service" as Ducati refers to them are always farther apart than the acceptable range for one or the other.
For those without a dealer near or who just like to tinker it is definitely possible to use a laptop with quality microphone and tuning program to set tension at home... that would produce a reliable result unlike twisting belts and other methods where there is no actual measurable output. You measure roughly half way between the lay shaft pulley and the belt tensioner. Ducati has a tool to mount the measuring module for the DDS, but it will only work with the DDS. You will get a different readout by measuring different parts of the belt.
Not positive...
but if the 'Bruce' you are mentioning is the one I'm thinking of...
he probably invented the 5mm allen key method.
Kinda sad he's a numbers man in your world...
he's a fun kinda guy in mine. ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on October 23, 2008, 06:15:39 PM
Not positive...
but if the 'Bruce' you are mentioning is the one I'm thinking of...
he probably invented the 5mm allen key method.
Kinda sad he's a numbers man in your world...
he's a fun kinda guy in mine. ;D
Same Bruce and I know what you are talking about... believe me - but regardless of all that I believe in doing things the best I can and I really don't believe the 5mm allen key method is the best I can do. No more beating the dead horse, I promise - everyone can have an opinion on this subject and it won't change anything. [thumbsup]
Quote from: bazz20 on October 23, 2008, 05:16:45 PM
as a mechanic my self i agree with what your saying ,the locking of the cams should only be yoused to a help keep ever thing lined up while replaceing belts , but what i would like to know what NOW is the hz for the s2r 1000 cheers bazz
140 on assembly and 100 after service. 20 Hz is equaly to roughly 5 degrees of cam timing so in this case that is a 10 degree difference.
What's the reason for using the locking pins / loose cam pulleys for a belt change?
If you want to remove the effect of the closer springs from the tensioning, that can be done by tensioning the belt at TDC fire.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 24, 2008, 09:53:31 AM
What's the reason for using the locking pins / loose cam pulleys for a belt change?
If you want to remove the effect of the closer springs from the tensioning, that can be done by tensioning the belt at TDC fire.
Its not the closer springs that are of concern. When you adjust the tensioner, it is tending to pull on one side of the belt, which then causes the puller to slightly rotate in a given direction, changing the timing. If you loosen the puller before tensioning the belt, the tension is applied evenly to the belt, allowing the cam/pulley to stay centered at the desired location while the belt moves.
Let me state it a different way.
If the timing is correctly set already, why re-set it when changing a belt?
It's a toothed belt, so the length can't vary and still work properly.
Quote from: desmoworks on October 24, 2008, 07:27:21 AM
140 on assembly and 100 after service. 20 Hz is equaly to roughly 5 degrees of cam timing so in this case that is a 10 degree difference.
thanks for that , now does that retard the cam timming and why such a big change ,has there been belt problems cheers bazz
Quote from: bazz20 on October 24, 2008, 01:38:54 PM
thanks for that , now does that retard the cam timming and why such a big change ,has there been belt problems cheers bazz
I'm pretty sure he was referring to using 140 Hz for setting the timing, and using 100Hz for operating the bike.
There have been tensioner and idler roller failures on the DS motors, and belt failures from seized rollers.
AFAIK, ducati has reduced the tension spec to 100 Hz from a higher spec in the past.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 24, 2008, 01:17:25 PM
Let me state it a different way.
If the timing is correctly set already, why re-set it when changing a belt?
It's a toothed belt, so the length can't vary and still work properly.
Ivan, are you going to answer this or do you want me to? There is a very good reason.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 24, 2008, 01:17:25 PM
Let me state it a different way.
If the timing is correctly set already, why re-set it when changing a belt?
It's a toothed belt, so the length can't vary and still work properly.
Once you remove & replace the belt, the timing is no longer set precisely. To me it is intuitively obvious that when you apply tension to one side of a belt, it is going to tend to rotate the driven pulley towards that side. It may not rotate very much, but it will rotate. Try this thought experiment.... lock the cam & crank into place, don't release the pulley from the cam, and then apply a lot of tension to one side of the belt. Now pull out the pin that locks the cam into place, I'm betting that you will see the pulley move.
Releasing the pulley from the cam prior to applying tension allows the tension to be applied evenly on both sides of the driven pulley. Using the special tools to lock the cam & crank into position while the belt is tensioned ensures that the timing is set the way the factory says it should be. At least this is the way I see things... Jethro?
Quote from: Ivan on October 26, 2008, 09:32:52 AM
Once you remove & replace the belt, the timing is no longer set precisely.
---------------snip------------------
Why?
Sounds like I need alot of specialized equipment.
So how much should I expect to pay an expert trained/equipped tech to do it for me?
Once you remove your pin and unlock the cam, its the same as if you never locked the cam. You cannot be more accurate than a tooth on the belt.
Speeddog, what Ivan has said is not wrong but he’s missed something so let’s start again, fitting a new belt then right through 12k miles to the next belt change.
You set the crank at tdc compression on horizontal cylinder; lock both cams either using the Ducati tools or, like me, using 6mm dia bar through the screw hole in left side cam cover. This sets the cams in the correct relationship to the crank for valve timing.
You slacken the 3 screws that lock the cam pulleys and then tension both the belts. I use the 45ˆmethod but you may use the Hz method if you are confident of the correct figure. What would be very wrong would be to use the allen key method if you slacken the 3 screws but I guess the reason is obvious.
Now you tighten the 3 screws to lock the cam pulleys and remove the locking bars.
Run the bike for 6k miles and check the belt tensions â€" if they’ve relaxed and you need to tension them you repeat the above procedure. This time, with the cams locked in correct relationship to crank and the 3 screws slackened the cam pulley will rotate as you tension the belt but the cams will not move as they’re locked. This means that the angular relationship of the grooves in the cam pulleys to the centre line of the cam lobes is different from when the belt was fitted new. If you didn’t slacken the 3 screws then the cams would rotate as well and the valve timing would be slightly retarded.
You tension the belt as before and run the bike for another 6k miles at which point it needs new belts as they’ve done 12k miles. This time you have to repeat the same procedure of locking the cams because the angular relationship of the grooves in the cam pulleys to centre line of cam lobes was only correct for the half worn belt. If you fitted the new belt without locking the cams and slackening the 3 screws the valve timing would be slightly advanced.
If you don’t tension the belts at 6k miles then you can just fit the new belts at 12k miles without locking the cams and slackening the 3 screws.
Is the slight change in valve timing significant and do you need to bother? Perhaps not, as the facility of maintaining the designed timing was not available on the 900 and it didn’t cause a problem. It is available on the ds1000 so it’s your choice.
(Both belts are tensioned with crank at tdc comp H cyl but as the cams are locked there is no added tension resulting from the effect of the closer springs on the V cyl belt. In fact, the locking bar can onlybe fitted on the V cyl with H cyl on tdc comp - it's easier as you don't need to turn crank.)
i've checked cam timing on 4v motors with new and old belts and it's been the same, which surprised me. that's pulled up overly tight too.
i never tension belts with the pullies locked and half screws loose. we just do it the old way - remove belts, fit new ones and tension at tdc firing for that particular cylinder - without touching the pulley half screws.. some of the factory settings using the locking tools are fairly good, and some rather crappy in my experience. if you want the cam timing to be right you need to check it and set it using a degree wheel, etc.
we were doing it at a training course and the load on the pullies from the belts cocked the pulley quite a bit, to the point where the half bolts had to be overly loose to allow the pulleis to rotate as the belts came up. then when you tightened the pulley half screws the belt tension increased due to the pulley outer moving back into true.
Quote from: EEL on October 20, 2008, 02:56:18 PM
Just use the 5mm Allen wrench trick..I don't see what the big deal is about this acoustic garbage for a 2 valver..for a 4 valver I can see that as an a possibility with is multiple cam gears..
Personally if you go by the book (i.e. the ducati owners manual), an oil change is a dealer only job.
I see a lot of comments about the '5mm allan wrench trick' Sounds pretty good to this nooby ! But does anyone have pics of this process??
I am having difficulty in picturing the exact process.
Where is the 5mm wrench placed ? Is the vertical cyl set up the same as the horizontal cyl. ? (This is all done for a 07 695)
Quote from: Ronnie-d on October 29, 2008, 02:25:01 PM
I see a lot of comments about the '5mm allan wrench trick' Sounds pretty good to this nooby ! But does anyone have pics of this process??
I am having difficulty in picturing the exact process.
Where is the 5mm wrench placed ? Is the vertical cyl set up the same as the horizontal cyl. ? (This is all done for a 07 695)
Check this out: http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/videos/
I used the harmonic method and the allen key method recently on my '07 M695 and I think it's linked earlier in this thread.
( found it: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11395.0 )
Still learning lots on this topic...
BK
Quote from: BK_856er on October 29, 2008, 04:30:23 PM
Check this out: http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/videos/
I used the harmonic method and the allen key method recently on my '07 M695 and I think it's linked earlier in this thread.
( found it: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11395.0 )
Still learning lots on this topic...
BK
Hey BK !
Thanks much for the video referance !!! A pic, or better yet, the video, is worth a thousand words !!!!
The more I can learn about my monster, the better I feel about attempting to do these maint things.