The thought hit me as I was reading through some of the 696 threads...
Those of you too young to remember the "New Coke" thing...a brief history lesson.
The Coca-Cola Co. came out with a product called "New Coke" It was replacing the regular "Coke" that everyone knew and loved. All that would be available when the old Coke supplies were used up would be the New Coke product.
People were buying and hording any and all of the old Coke that they could get their hands on...
Well, of course, the Coca-Cola Company "decided" that they would produce both and the original Coke would become "Coke Classic" (many people now think it was one of the greatest marketing plans in the history of soft drink sales).
Soooo, stands to reason to me that Ducati will produce 696-ish Monsters, eventually eliminating our beloved 'classic' Monster. Ducati lovers the world over will be up in arms. Prices for older Monster will start to climb..............Ducati to the rescue with a line of "Monster Classics"!
Store away all their old tooling, upgrade with the most current engine...Jack up the price (since by all means it will be a 'modern classic') and, the return of Monster Classic will spell the death of 696-ish Monsters.....When was the last time you saw "New Coke" on the store shelves?? Maybe it is still there, I drink neither.
Anyway...Who knows? It just sorta fits the mold...I predict this to happen in 4 to 5 years...if the world holds together that long.
Nah, when it's gone it'll be gone. Everyone cried about the 999 being the ugliest thing ever. Ducati didn't care they ran the normal life cycle of it. Granted they steered away from that design with the 1098 replacement, but I wouldn't consider the 1098 a 916 Classic. [bacon]
ok, don't get me wrong here... I certainly get the point. And, furthermore love the classic monster styling. It's the reason I now own a 696. I've mentioned this before, but I've been planning to buy a monster for about 4 years now. Specifically, a few years back I saw a 620ie and it flat out blew my mind. At the time I was thinking that if I could buy a new bike it'd be a thruxton cause u love the looks, but the just don't deliver... 460lbs does not a cafe racer make.... Long story short, i fell for the monster instantly. It was like someone look at my cafe'd up CB400f and said "yeah, let's build that.... But make it look like the frame can hardly contain the engine... And make the frame dead sexy.... And make it snarl."
So yeah,i love the monster line. Especiallly the S2R800... But by the time came, when I'd finally paid off my car, and solidified my place at work... When the "summer of new bike" came, I found that ducati had completely redesigned the bike i'd planned to buy. And I was torn for a while. Espically because there wasnt an oportunity to see both.
I was luke warm on the headlight ad hated the sub frame, but the numbers were great and I loved the exaust routing.... Plan to go Ti for the cans... But by the time they launched the subframe was black, and when I finally saw the light, it looked pretty good
so I guess my point is, yeah it's different. I like it. Maybe it's like how I think every mustang since 1968 looked like crap and in 40 years they'll release a "monster super classic" like the GT1000
i always felt that Coca Cola blew it big time with new coke. tried to make it just like pepsi
lost most of their customers
didnt get them back till the reintroduced "classic" coke
moral: dont mess with it if it aint broke
Quote from: herm on July 06, 2008, 08:56:57 PM
moral: dont mess with it if it aint broke
Exactly. I love my 28.8k modem and my 8-track player.
"696= Isa one hundreda percenta Ducati" [coffee]
The problem with the original coke and coke classic (post new Coke) was that it wasn't the same recipe. They changed the real sugar for high fructose corn syrup as the sweetener. But since everyone got a taste of new coke they didn't notice the difference on the "classic". It saved Coca-Cola a TON of money going with corn, and few ever knew the difference because of the "new coke" palate cleanser.
Current Monster or Classic Monster= both made by Ducati
The way I see it, a real Ducati is one that makes your heart beat quicker before you've even reached for the keys, or just makes you admire it, basking in it's reflected glory, or pops into your thoughts just before you drift off to sleep... [thumbsup]
No matter what model you own it's part of the Ducati family. All it matters is how it make you feels. [moto]
Quote from: slim_grizzy on July 06, 2008, 09:27:48 PM
The problem with the original coke and coke classic (post new Coke) was that it wasn't the same recipe. They changed the real sugar for high fructose corn syrup as the sweetener. But since everyone got a taste of new coke they didn't notice the difference on the "classic". It saved Coca-Cola a TON of money going with corn, and few ever knew the difference because of the "new coke" palate cleanser.
Want to try Real coke made with Real sugar? Go to mexico, and get the bottled coke... they dont use corn syrup. Tastes different, and much better IMO.
Coca cola's been around for decades and decades.. whereas the monsters only been around since the 90's. So the original comparison doesn't really "fit the mold"
This whole title is an amalgamation of redundancy. The current monster IS the 696.
Therefore it says "696 = New Coke" 696 = "Coke Classic"
When I saw the first pictures from Milan , showing this space scooter design misfit, I was damn close to buy a GT 1000 sport.
But luckily I could score a beautiful , classic 695 before the evil attack of the martians started.
The 696 is more the Coke Zero
Too bad your analogy is wrong.
Unlike New Coke, the 696 seems to be doing pretty well...
"I am pleased to report that sales were strong across the model range and have been exceptional for the newly introduced Monster 696,†commented Jason Chinnock, National Sales Manager for Ducati North America. “The 696 demand outpaced our supply for the month otherwise the new record of 1410 units would have been higher!"
See: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=6448.0
I was going to make this same analogy in my poll thread, so I think it is apt. Another one I thought about about was the mid-80s Porsches like the 924, where they decided to be a bit more populist, and in the process spread the badge thinner. You can't argue with success, which is why the Porsche example is probably not as good as the Coke one.
The argument I made from day one is that the refresh was a change that nobody asked for. And by nobody, I mean the people already riding or planning to ride a monster in its 695/SNR form. I have never heard a fan say "the monster is a stupendous bike. Now, if only they took away some of the things I really love about it..." So, the only thing that makes sense is that despite the Monster's sales numbers and loyal ridership, they were going to reach out to other consumers. While I don't have much of an emotional investment in it, I understand how this might be percieved as a Ducati turning away (I wouldn't say turning their back) on the consumers that made them successful. Some people, (people named The Ron) take this as some kind of personal insult. I know where they are coming from, but I don't necessarily share the outrage.
I still think the old bike with the new bits would have sold like gangbusters. Which is why I could see and live with these two bikes co-existing in their own development paths. I do think they should call the new Monster something else, though.
Can anyone recognize this movie quote?
"Oh, actually all champagne is French, it's named after the region. Otherwise it's sparkling white wine. Americans of course don't recognize the convention, so it becomes that thing of calling all of their sparkling white "champagne", even though by definition they're not."
"Ah yes, it's a lot like 'Star Trek: The Next Generation'. In many ways it's superior but will never be as recognized as the original."
Waynes World... right?
Quote from: Bill in OKC on July 07, 2008, 07:31:36 AM
Can anyone recognize this movie quote?
"Oh, actually all champagne is French, it's named after the region. Otherwise it's sparkling white wine. Americans of course don't recognize the convention, so it becomes that thing of calling all of their sparkling white "champagne", even though by definition they're not."
"Ah yes, it's a lot like 'Star Trek: The Next Generation'. In many ways it's superior but will never be as recognized as the original."
No, but I agree with it.
Quote from: slim_grizzy on July 06, 2008, 09:27:48 PM
The problem with the original coke and coke classic (post new Coke) was that it wasn't the same recipe. They changed the real sugar for high fructose corn syrup as the sweetener. But since everyone got a taste of new coke they didn't notice the difference on the "classic". It saved Coca-Cola a TON of money going with corn, and few ever knew the difference because of the "new coke" palate cleanser.
Get Mexican Coke :)
I think Aussie Coke still uses real sugar. will have to check one of these days.
Z...
Quote from: il d00d on July 07, 2008, 07:22:04 AM
I was going to make this same analogy in my poll thread, so I think it is apt. Another one I thought about about was the mid-80s Porsches like the 924, where they decided to be a bit more populist, and in the process spread the badge thinner. You can't argue with success, which is why the Porsche example is probably not as good as the Coke one.
The argument I made from day one is that the refresh was a change that nobody asked for. And by nobody, I mean the people already riding or planning to ride a monster in its 695/SNR form. I have never heard a fan say "the monster is a stupendous bike. Now, if only they took away some of the things I really love about it..." So, the only thing that makes sense is that despite the Monster's sales numbers and loyal ridership, they were going to reach out to other consumers. While I don't have much of an emotional investment in it, I understand how this might be percieved as a Ducati turning away (I wouldn't say turning their back) on the consumers that made them successful. Some people, (people named The Ron) take this as some kind of personal insult. I know where they are coming from, but I don't necessarily share the outrage.
I still think the old bike with the new bits would have sold like gangbusters. Which is why I could see and live with these two bikes co-existing in their own development paths. I do think they should call the new Monster something else, though.
well your argument that "nobody asked for the change" is your opinion on that matter, sure you can ask a lot of people and they will say "keep it the same" about anything the classic "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but you know like anything else things are slowly changed or evolved over time if for no other reason to get you to buy a new "thing" .
otherwise how can you explain we are not still driving around in cars that look like cars from the 80s?
i see what ducati is doign with the new monster, like all radical changes a lot of people may not agree with it at first but they are giving it a shot for a while. they may change things back somewhat but i doubt it. the "monster" design is a bit dated, use any other nice word you want "classic, timeless" etc but in auto or bike terms the 695 design and look is essentially a 10 year old design at the least, ancient by motorcycle or car standards and time for a refresh, you could say the s2r line and such was the "refresh", but this design was never put to the "base" model, and the 696 is the "refresh".
whining about how you don't like the 696 is not going to change things, it either will sell or it won't if they lose a lot of sales guess what they will change it again.
Quote from: Zee on July 07, 2008, 08:09:39 AM
Get Mexican Coke :)
Yeah, that´s the evil plan to conquer the world! Have everyone drink mexican coke???!!! [drink] [drink] ;D
Quote from: sbrguy on July 07, 2008, 08:16:10 AM
well your argument that "nobody asked for the change" is your opinion on that matter, sure you can ask a lot of people and they will say "keep it the same" about anything the classic "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but you know like anything else things are slowly changed or evolved over time if for no other reason to get you to buy a new "thing" .
otherwise how can you explain we are not still driving around in cars that look like cars from the 80s?
whining about how you don't like the 696 is not going to change things, it either will sell or it won't if they lose a lot of sales guess what they will change it again.
OK, if that is the case, my argument, that no current owners were clamoring for radical changes to the monster, is a bit more qualifiable than yours, which is that it was "dated". You can search TOB for threads entitled "changes you would make to your monster" and I don't think you will see any that say, change the trellis frame, add air intakes to the tank. You will see swingarm/SSS, updated engine or suspension parts. So, to put a finer point on it, there was no apparent demand for modernization within the monster-riding community aside from non-cosmetic stuff.
Not that I am endorsing this, but HD would be a good example of a successful, long-term if-it-ain't-broke development plan - keeping something the same and remaining successful is not unprecendented. (Here's the part where I ask you why hundreds of thousands of middle-aged men are riding around on bikes designed in the 50s ;) )
Again, I am not suggesting that Ducati should have taken the same path.
Re: whining, you need to read my post more carefully.
Sorry to be like an a-hole, but this analogy is pretty lame and this topic has been beat as much as it possibly could. How much longer until you guys decide the dead 696 horse is no longer a fun one to beat?
Quote from: timmer357 on July 07, 2008, 09:19:22 AM
Sorry to be like an a-hole, but this analogy is pretty lame and this topic has been beat as much as it possibly could. How much longer until you guys decide the dead 696 horse is no longer a fun one to beat?
i think it will be about the same time they stop going on about, harley riders not waving to them, riders of japanese made motorcycles ALL being squids, and the fact that ducati has more "soul" than anything on two wheels....oh and that a dry clutch makes it a ducati.
which is to say....never. and that makes the baby jesus (or baby deity of your choice) cry.
Quote from: timmer357 on July 07, 2008, 09:19:22 AM
Sorry to be like an a-hole, but this analogy is pretty lame and this topic has been beat as much as it possibly could. How much longer until you guys decide the dead 696 horse is no longer a fun one to beat?
+1
No one is forcing you to buy a M696. Ducati is still making the M695. Everyone has options; why piss on the 696?
What I like about the 696 is that it makes my 01 750 a classic!
I say bring on the changes, and I'll hang on to my old monster, even if I get a new monster.
[bacon]
696 guys (and gals) I really didn't do my original post to 'dis' the 696...I rather like it but for a couple areas (headlight and stock cans). It is just that as I was reading other 696 threads, the Coke thing did come to mind. So I thought I'd post and see what others thought.....Which I did/have.
Yes, they are both current Monsters but I think most everyone understood the intent of my subject line. Ducati has some history of running old and new models together for a year or so. I think it is more than just a trial balloon, a new model is just way too expensive to develop and take to market...and for a small manufacturer such as Ducati, it can't be just done on a whim. Honda can put out a failed model and just absorb it and move on. Not so easy with Ducati I would think.
I somewhat agree that it may have been better accepted if it would have been released under another name. If the sales figures are as good as some say for the 696-ish Monster than I fear our beloved "Classic" Monster is soon be gone from the product offering...probably till the parts bins are empty.
Frankly I got sick of reading in MC mags how "dated" the Monster is...Like somone else mentioned...What about Harleys. Why don't you ever read the same thing stated about Harleys in MC mags?
Oh well...A well kept "Classic" Monster can only go up in value if they are no longer available and still desired by the public...Though there are a ton of them around due to their long production life so "classic" resale prices are still probably pretty far off for the classic Monster.
Frankly I got sick of reading in MC mags how "dated" the Monster is...Like somone else mentioned...What about Harleys. Why don't you ever read the same thing stated about Harleys in MC mags?
[/quote]
my guess is nobody says HD is "dated" bc HD whole BRAND is built off of the "outlaw biker" image of the marlon brando and biker gangs image. So their bikes in a sense have to be "dated" because its what makes their brand "their brand" if you update it too much nobody will buy them.
i would say that is why HD is going back to the things like the cross bones and the all blacked out springer bikes and such, bc they know that is what sells for them, they tried to go modern with the v-rod and if i'm not mistaken it doesn't sell as well as some of their othr bikes.
Ducati i say cna't really do that as much, ducati though built on a racing heritage and such still likes to say its a "racing brand" even though most of the bikes are not superbikes they are in a way trying to say they are modern more or less.
Quote from: il d00d on July 07, 2008, 09:15:00 AM
OK, if that is the case, my argument, that no current owners were clamoring for radical changes to the monster, is a bit more qualifiable than yours, which is that it was "dated". You can search TOB for threads entitled "changes you would make to your monster" and I don't think you will see any that say, change the trellis frame, add air intakes to the tank. You will see swingarm/SSS, updated engine or suspension parts. So, to put a finer point on it, there was no apparent demand for modernization within the monster-riding community aside from non-cosmetic stuff.
Why would they care what the *current* owners want. They already have a Ducati, and are less likely to buy a newer, slightly better version of a bike they already own, especially one that's probably been modified at great time and expense. Most monster owners wouldn't buy a second-they'd get a hyper, or an 848, or who knows what. It's silly to cater to a market that probably isn't buying. Ducati's move makes sense.
Quote from: slim_grizzy on July 06, 2008, 09:27:48 PM
The problem with the original coke and coke classic (post new Coke) was that it wasn't the same recipe. They changed the real sugar for high fructose corn syrup as the sweetener. But since everyone got a taste of new coke they didn't notice the difference on the "classic". It saved Coca-Cola a TON of money going with corn, and few ever knew the difference because of the "new coke" palate cleanser.
So to follow this analogy through......
In Step 1 of the plan Ducati builds the 696 (New Coke) knowing it is a piece of crap and the current customers wouldn't like it.
In Step 2 the S2R Monsters are discontinued and the execs in Bologna wait for the hue & cry from the Ducati faithful.
Then Step 3 will then have Ducati to reintroduce the old Monster (Coke Classic) but having substituted cheaper components. >:( Hmmmmmmm.........
Of course....I only follow this analogy through to it's logical conclusion purely for entertainment purposes ;D.Really folks. Enough of this being polite. I don't really like the 696. Not that it's a bad bike...just not my thing. If any of us here felt it was the first of a distinct new line within Ducati I don't think there would be any of this animosity. I think it would be completely welcomed. But we are all pretty sure that based on Ducati's stated intention to shrink their product line our "old" Monster is being put out to pasture before many of us consider it's time has passed.
I for one am pissed off with this state of affairs. The whole tone of the conversation now seems to have degenerated to an "it's us against them" scenario. If the young squids around here feel that they have "won" something by defeating the lovers of the old Monster...then they can go to Hell. I'll continue to treat the 696 as the bastard child of the Ducati family and enjoy my S2R and any older M-series Monster that happens to come along.
Not going to happen... Ducati didn't reintroduce the 916 when the 999 came out.
Just get over it -- the old monster is d, o, n, e, done.
Just a matter of time before Ducati starts showing off the new style large monsters.
I just wonder if the Suzukatistas are gonna have this much debate when they finally quit painting the GSXRs blue and white? I love my S2R, wet clutch, stacked exhaust, and all. When I wear it out, I will go get another and pick from what Ducati offers. As long as it makes enough noise to irritate my neighbors and I can take off the Mickey Mouse mirrors. I am not to hard to please.
Quote from: psycledelic on July 07, 2008, 06:46:24 PM
When I wear it out, I will go get another and pick from what Ducati some other company offers. As long as it makes enough noise to irritate my neighbors and I can take off the Mickey Mouse mirrors.
Yeah......In the end I'll probably adopt a similar attitude. Funny thing is two years ago when I started thinking seriously about Ducati the Monster was number one in my mind. I also loved the look of the SuperSports but they've gone extinct. Finally, I'd thought that someday when I wanted to be "respectable" an ST of some description might be in my future. It's gone now too!
Hmmmmm...New Monster style? Nah...Looks good on paper ....Just doesn't do it for me.....
HyperMotard??.....Nope...probably a lot of fun but I'm past that stage in life.....
848 or 1098??....Hmmm....Very pretty however no illusions of being a roadracer here....
Sport Classic.....Well...If I really wanted an antique I'd just get a Harley.....
Jeez.....What's left?? I guess I never
really was a Ducati guy after all. [bang]
edit: Wow!! I can't believe it took me this long to figure it out! After reading my own post it became obvious though. Ducati could care less about my sorry "late middle-aged" demographic. Hell ...We'll all be too old and crippled to even ride in a few years anyway. ???
Quote from: PizzaMonster on July 07, 2008, 08:22:54 PM
Yeah......In the end I'll probably adopt a similar attitude. Funny thing is two years ago when I started thinking seriously about Ducati the Monster was number one in my mind. I also loved the look of the SuperSports but they've gone extinct. Finally, I'd thought that someday when I wanted to be "respectable" an ST of some description might be in my future. It's gone now too!
Hmmmmm...New Monster style? Nah...Looks good on paper ....Just doesn't do it for me.....
HyperMotard??.....Nope...probably a lot of fun but I'm past that stage in life.....
848 or 1098??....Hmmm....Very pretty however no illusions of being a roadracer here....
Sport Classic.....Well...If I really wanted an antique I'd just get a Harley.....
Jeez.....What's left?? I guess I never really was a Ducati guy after all. [bang]
edit: Wow!! I can't believe it took me this long to figure it out! After reading my own post it became obvious though. Ducati could care less about my sorry "late middle-aged" demographic. Hell ...We'll all be too old and crippled to even ride in a few years anyway. ???
Wow, I sure didn't mean to lead you down that path. Come on back man. Have some faith. My advice is for you to walk into your local shop and hold a 1098 in your arms. Snuggle with it if neccessary. Let it be your Yoda and guide you through these troubled times.
As much as I like the 848s look, I don't like the hardness and position.
Seems I am going down touring lane so I will probably check on the ST3 sooner or later.
A Speed Triple looks nice too...and there is the new Benelli 899.
Ahhh...so many bike, to little money [moto]
Quote from: PizzaMonster on July 07, 2008, 08:22:54 PM
Hmmmmm...New Monster style? Nah...Looks good on paper ....Just doesn't do it for me.....
HyperMotard??.....Nope...probably a lot of fun but I'm past that stage in life.....
848 or 1098??....Hmmm....Very pretty however no illusions of being a roadracer here....
Sport Classic.....Well...If I really wanted an antique I'd just get a Harley.....
You have just brought up something else that has been bugging me. This new design signals a major shift (IMHO) in Monster philosophy. The naked sportbike - a sportbike that has had the bodywork removed. There really was an illusion of being a roadracer on the street before. The new-coke monster is not really an 851, 888 or 848 frame. It is no longer a naked version of Ducati's superbike.
The 696's frame is more like the Desmodeci's -- which to me screams that frame is based off the top of the line Ducati superbike.
If you go with the idea that the monster was the "illusion of being a roadracer on the street" because of the frame, then that breed of monster died in 02 when all monsters started to be made with ST series frames and the 851/888 framed monsters ceased to exist.
Well, point taken.
As I said the frame is not the problem.
Its the fugly collection of plastic crap around it.
It makes it look so childish and not powerful and strong at all.
Been to the dealer again and they put it next to the Brutale 910 and Benelli 899
THATs a big mistake , I tell you.
696 is Kindergarten on wheels.
The $4Rs behind(!) that trio looks like the aunt supervising the wild kids ;)
Quote from: M900Sie on July 08, 2008, 07:43:54 AM
If you go with the idea that the monster was the "illusion of being a roadracer on the street" because of the frame, then that breed of monster died in 02 when all monsters started to be made with ST series frames and the 851/888 framed monsters ceased to exist.
I guess "illusion" is the operative word.
Here is a write up on the ST4 frame:
The frame is basically a Monster trellis, itself derived from the 851/888. A 916-style rear suspension linkage brings up the rear
Quote from: wbeck257 on July 08, 2008, 05:40:24 AM
The 696's frame is more like the Desmodeci's -- which to me screams that frame is based off the top of the line Ducati superbike.
IMHO the 696 looks more like it is related to the Buell Blast than the Desmosedici - but that is just me.
Quote from: M900Sie on July 08, 2008, 07:43:54 AM
If you go with the idea that the monster was the "illusion of being a roadracer on the street" because of the frame, then that breed of monster died in 02 when all monsters started to be made with ST series frames and the 851/888 framed monsters ceased to exist.
The frame may not be superbike on the 696, But I believe the 696 shares wheels, suspension, Instrument cluster, and other bits off the 848.
Quote from: ArguZ on July 08, 2008, 07:46:24 AM
Well, point taken.
As I said the frame is not the problem.
Its the fugly collection of plastic crap around it.
It makes it look so childish and not powerful and strong at all.
Been to the dealer again and they put it next to the Brutale 910 and Benelli 899
THATs a big mistake , I tell you.
696 is Kindergarten on wheels.
The $4Rs behind(!) that trio looks like the aunt supervising the wild kids ;)
[roll] [coffee]
I saw the same thing when the new SV650 from Suzuki came out.
The old SV has a cult following (me included) and Hell broke loose.
It's been 4-5 years now and they still talk about it on soem forums.
But Suzuki stick with it and now I think the old one has an outdated, almost ugly, look.
Of course, technology wise, the new SV was better than the old one.
I predict the same will happen with the 696 if the mechanics is as good.
Can't stop progress...
Id like to see Honda update the VTR1000.
I think this goes the same route as the early 90's SS and the last SS. A lot of people didn't like it, but it was based on the supermono which was WAY sportier. I think we should trust Ducati on the direction they are taking. The 'old style' bikes seem to be playing out and IMHO good riddance. The SS will HAVE to be replaced soon enough and the new Monster frame/parts is a great place to start. The new Monster is more aggressive and more confortable right out of the box than the original. Add a 1098 motor to the new lighter and better handling Monster and WOAH! Now add supersexy Desmosedici-style body work and you have the new SS.
Give the new Monster 2 years to get to the 1098 motor and then let's relook at what people are saying. In a lot of ways, this new Monster has a lot of features original Monster owners wanted (the high exhausts, short tail and lower front end).
Plus I love the new narrow waist look of the bike, and enjoy the HELL out of riding it!