Two versions of a new model for 2014 the "Street"
http://street.harley-davidson.com/en_US (http://street.harley-davidson.com/en_US)
500 and 750 WATER cooled twins - I wonder what the HD faithful will say?
We know water cooling has come to some of their bigger bikes in a sorta of retro fit - but these sport a new engine.
I'm guessing that these are really targeting the over seas markets. Places where they want a Harley but cannot have bigger bikes or they are just totally impractical. But they are bringing them out in the states too..
regarding water cooling SP, I think all manufacturers are going that way due to emissions . .. maybe, just maybe, small displacement will still be air cooled . . .
and with those prices, it will definitely compete against some of the smaller 'cruisers' from Asia . . .
Oh I know water cooling is going to be the way of things for pretty much everything. Just poking a little fun
I've already talked to a couple of my buddies that are die-hard Harley riders. They're not concerned with water-cooled or small-displacement. What they're PISSED about, is that Harley is making these in India.
Making just these in India? What about other stuff they are marking there that's coming here? That's probably getting them more.
Like I said, I really figure these are for the Asian market. I can't see sales of them being strong at all in the US - unless they dispensed with the 883 sporty
Quote from: ChrisK on November 05, 2013, 06:39:02 AM
I've already talked to a couple of my buddies that are die-hard Harley riders. They're not concerned with water-cooled or small-displacement. What they're PISSED about, is that Harley is making these in India.
What you might want to point out to them (though they might be too stupid to listen if they are THAT die-hard ;)) is
1. Harley ASSEMBLES Sportsters and Big Twins in India and Brazil already in order to get around huge import duties. BUT those assemblies are made using motors built here, and frames and other components made here in Harley's facilities and partially pre-assembled. So it still creates work for Americans, and MORE IMPORTANTLY allows the Harley to take steps towards correcting trade imbalances with the US. So Kudos for Harley.
and
2. Word is that the North American market for these new bikes will be supplied by the Kansas City factory. I.E. models sold here, will be built here. Again, win-win for American workers.
I'm a pretty strong, life-long fan of the brand (or at least the bikes) and I'm kinda glad that they are taking this step from a moving forward, expanding their customer base standpoint. I wish them well.
Besides, I've sorta got a thing for smaller displacement/lighter bikes these days.
That said, I'm NOT trading my Sportster for one, as I'm really not interested in water-cooling, but who knows what I might consider in the future.
Quote from: Slide Panda on November 05, 2013, 06:45:34 AM
Like I said, I really figure these are for the Asian market. I can't see sales of them being strong at all in the US - unless they dispensed with the 883 sporty
I SUSPECT initial sales in the US will be slow, BUT - the 750cc bike makes the same HP as the current 883 AND reports are it will COST AT LEAST $1k less (more like $2-3k if you look at custom colors etc), so I COULD SEE these bikes squeezing out the 883 long term.
I have been told parts are coming from India, even though they are supposed to be assembled in US.
Personally, I'd expect the 750 to displace (ahem) the 883. They occupy the same slot in the product line - at least in my noggin and the price point is kinder than the 883
Granted I don't totally understand the HD product line as there seem several bikes that are really really over-lappy market spots. But HD isn't the only maker I ponder that with.
Quote from: HotIce on November 05, 2013, 06:51:03 AM
I have been told parts are coming from India, even though they are supposed to be assembled in US.
It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case for this model, but that's not the case for the rest of the line.
HD makes a water cooled Honda Rebel. [coffee]
(http://street.harley-davidson.com/img/photos/photo6.jpg)
Quote from: Kev M on November 05, 2013, 06:46:00 AM
What you might want to point out to them (though they might be too stupid to listen if they are THAT die-hard ;)) is
1. Harley ASSEMBLES Sportsters and Big Twins in India and Brazil already in order to get around huge import duties. BUT those assemblies are made using motors built here, and frames and other components made here in Harley's facilities and partially pre-assembled. So it still creates work for Americans, and MORE IMPORTANTLY allows the Harley to take steps towards correcting trade imbalances with the US. So Kudos for Harley.
and
2. Word is that the North American market for these new bikes will be supplied by the Kansas City factory. I.E. models sold here, will be built here. Again, win-win for American workers.
I'm a pretty strong, life-long fan of the brand (or at least the bikes) and I'm kinda glad that they are taking this step from a moving forward, expanding their customer base standpoint. I wish them well.
Besides, I've sorta got a thing for smaller displacement/lighter bikes these days.
That said, I'm NOT trading my Sportster for one, as I'm really not interested in water-cooling, but who knows what I might consider in the future.
I agree with all that. I was just giving an example of what a "die-hard" will perceive. Perception is reality, so they say… [coffee]
Quote from: Kev M on November 05, 2013, 06:48:39 AM
I SUSPECT initial sales in the US will be slow, BUT - the 750cc bike makes the same HP as the current 883 AND reports are it will COST AT LEAST $1k less (more like $2-3k if you look at custom colors etc), so I COULD SEE these bikes squeezing out the 883 long term.
A tangent to be sure.... but... I find these new Harleys to be EEEEWWWW.
That said, I want a Softail Slim or a Sportster 48 in the WORST WAY... lol
Quote from: Johnny5 on November 05, 2013, 07:25:21 AM
A tangent to be sure.... but... I find these new Harleys to be EEEEWWWW.
That side shot Pedro posted... wow that bike is lacking appeal.
Well, we are talking about cheap/entry level bikes here - I guess I can forgive a LITTLE EEWWW [laugh]
Like I said, I'm not looking to replace my Sporty, OR my Guzzi with one, but I BET they'll sell.
That said, check the Harley website out, they've already got some "customs" their bike designers built on the platform to show what can be done with them. And a LOT of Harley sales are because they are blank canvases.
This one doesn't suck
(http://cakeeater.smugmug.com/Sample-Gallery/i-VQbWHJS/0/L/Screen%20Shot%202013-11-04%20at%209.54.45%20PM-L.png)
Quote from: Kev M on November 05, 2013, 08:12:31 AM
This one doesn't suck
(http://cakeeater.smugmug.com/Sample-Gallery/i-VQbWHJS/0/L/Screen%20Shot%202013-11-04%20at%209.54.45%20PM-L.png)
Nope - I dig that one
Who designed the motor? It's very V-rod esque (their other water cooled one) in appearance and pipe routing.
JM
Quote from: the_Journeyman on November 05, 2013, 08:29:38 AM
Who designed the motor? It's very V-rod esque (their other water cooled one) in appearance and pipe routing.
JM
From the name "Revolution" and basic specs (60 degree V-twin, 4V/cylinder) I'm ASSuming (drink [drink]) that it's a very mildly tuned V-Rod derivative. But it's otherwise not been made public yet that I can tell.
Quote from: Kev M on November 05, 2013, 08:12:31 AM
Well, we are talking about cheap/entry level bikes here - I guess I can forgive a LITTLE EEWWW [laugh]
Like I said, I'm not looking to replace my Sporty, OR my Guzzi with one, but I BET they'll sell.
That said, check the Harley website out, they've already got some "customs" their bike designers built on the platform to show what can be done with them. And a LOT of Harley sales are because they are blank canvases.
This one doesn't suck
Yep that one is not bad. But I'm a big-time sucker for fat front Bobbers and I want one of these two in the worst way:
(http://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/softail-models/251641d1337731877-softail-slim-fatboyslim1.jpg)
(http://pictures.dealer.com/h/harleydavidsonofcartersville/0256/7e41edf90a0d02b7012927385182522f.jpg)
Quote from: the_Journeyman on November 05, 2013, 08:29:38 AM
Who designed the motor? It's very V-rod esque (their other water cooled one) in appearance and pipe routing.
JM
Found it - first report on motor
First info on motor:
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/11/04/2014-harley-davidson-street-500-and-street-750-revealed-at-eicma-2013/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=2014-harley-davidson-street-500-and-street-750-revealed-at-eicma-2013 (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/11/04/2014-harley-davidson-street-500-and-street-750-revealed-at-eicma-2013/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=2014-harley-davidson-street-500-and-street-750-revealed-at-eicma-2013)
Quote
Let’s start with the engine, a liquid-cooled 60-degree V-twin whose chain-driven single overhead camshafts operate four valves per cylinder via roller rockers with screw adjusters. Called the Revolution X, this all-new powerplant, with a vertically split crankcase and plain bearings, is a modern design that traces its lineage back to the V-Rod of 2001. Jeff Coughlin, Harley’s chief powertrain engineer, says a 60-degree design was chosen to help reduce the height of the wet-sump engine, which helps keep seat height and center of gravity low, important considerations given that the Street is seen as a first bike for many potential customers.
Separate aluminum cylinders are fitted with pressed-in iron liners, and the only difference between the 500 and 750 versions, which share a 66.0mm stroke, is the bore. The 500’s is 69.0mm, which makes for an actual displacement of 494cc. The 750’s bore, at 85.0mm, makes for a displacement of 749cc. Redline for both engines is 8,000 rpm, and peak power for the 750, though not officially announced, was said by one Harley rep to be 54 hp at 7,500 rpm, with 44 pound-feet of peak torque arriving at an unspecified rpm. A single balance shaft keeps the V-twin from shaking too much, and a six-speed transmission works with Harley’s familiar belt final drive.
Those numbers are nothing to a Ducati or the rest of the sportbike/naked standard world, but they are actually VERY competitive to the metric cruiser market.
Article is wrong about weight differences between Iron 883 and Street however (assuming Harley's wet weight specs are right).
Street 480 lbs.
Iron 883 562 lbs.
So it's not only NOT close to 200 lbs, it's actually a little LESS than 100 lbs.
QuoteRedline for both engines is 8,000 rpm, and peak power for the 750, though not officially announced, was said by one Harley rep to be 54 hp at 7,500 rpm, with 44 pound-feet of peak torque arriving at an unspecified rpm
I just don't get power number on these bikes. My 650cc single is rated at 63 hp, and 64 Nm/47 ft/lbs with similar redline numbers.
Quote from: Kev M on November 05, 2013, 08:12:31 AM
Well, we are talking about cheap/entry level bikes here - I guess I can forgive a LITTLE EEWWW [laugh]
Like I said, I'm not looking to replace my Sporty, OR my Guzzi with one, but I BET they'll sell.
That said, check the Harley website out, they've already got some "customs" their bike designers built on the platform to show what can be done with them. And a LOT of Harley sales are because they are blank canvases.
This one doesn't suck
(http://cakeeater.smugmug.com/Sample-Gallery/i-VQbWHJS/0/L/Screen%20Shot%202013-11-04%20at%209.54.45%20PM-L.png)
That's a RSD one, which I think it has only the original engine left [roll]
Talk about apples to watermelons!
(Referring to the KTM comparison)
Quote from: SpikeC on November 05, 2013, 10:02:50 AM
Talk about apples to watermelons!
(Referring to the KTM comparison)
Would it beeeee ORANGES! ;D
Ok, Oranges to watermelons!
Yea, but it's a KTM :D
For similar V-twin reference - My wife's water-cooled 650cc twin makes (accord to specs) makes 58HP and weighs 370lbs dry and around 406lbs wet.
JM
Quote from: Slide Panda on November 05, 2013, 09:53:41 AM
I just don't get power number on these bikes. My 650cc single is rated at 63 hp, and 64 Nm/47 ft/lbs with similar redline numbers.
Then you don't get the cruiser market. Harleys and most metric cruisers are tuned for wide, flat, torque curves, typically with lower peak hp numbers.
They're also tuned for economy.
These numbers are obviously not impressive to anyone looking at any sportbike derivative (of any common motorcycle engine configuration) but they are pretty much matching or better to all the metric cruisers in the 500-800cc range, and matching some up to 900cc.
Quote from: HotIce on November 05, 2013, 10:00:45 AM
That's a RSD one, which I think it has only the original engine left [roll]
Yes I get that (though it is a great exaggeration), but like most of their parts catalog build bikes it was done to show what can be done with the platform. Remember Harley makes a significant share of their money by selling blank canvases (and the accessories to make them look different, like this).
Quote from: Kev M on November 05, 2013, 10:31:45 AM
Then you don't get the cruiser market.
They're also tuned for economy.
Granted - I don't.
But that KTM has a wide, flat torque curve. I can feed in the clutch and get that bike rolling and keep going even up hills without ever touching the throttle... and it keeps torquing along though the band
It also pulls 50mpg (freakishly) at the track and 55mpg real world.
I'm not expecting the freaky inline 4 power numbers from something slated for cruiser use. But it just seems to me that given current capabilities a water cooled 750 should have more to it.
Not sure how much of the original bike is left here... but this versions pretty hawt
(http://i.imgur.com/WQQEcyg.jpg)
Quote from: Slide Panda on November 05, 2013, 10:39:29 AM
Granted - I don't.
But that KTM has a wide, flat torque curve. I can feed in the clutch and get that bike rolling and keep going even up hills without ever touching the throttle... and it keeps torquing along though the band
It also pulls 50mpg (freakishly) at the track and 55mpg real world.
I'm not expecting the freaky inline 4 power numbers from something slated for cruiser use. But it just seems to me that given current capabilities a water cooled 750 should have more to it.
Oh, I hear ya, but again, just look at the word you used with regards to the KTM - "track" - that's another world.
Here are some examples of what these bikes are competing against:
Honda Shadow RS - 745cc, 503 lbs. wet, 42 hp (about 38 rwhp)
Honda 500x - 500cc, 430 lbs, 46 hp (about 42 rwhp)
Yamaha V-Star Custom - 650cc, 514 lbs. wet, 40 hp (about 33 rwhp)
Suzuki C50 - 805cc, 611 lbs. wet, 50 hp (about 42 rwhp)
Suzuki S40 - 650cc, 380 lbs. wet, 31 hp (about 25 rwhp)
Kawasaki doesn't really have anything in the category anymore since they discontinued the Vulcan 500LTD, the smallest they have are the 900cc Vulcans which are really more Sportster competitors. That said the current
Kawasaki Vulcan 900, 903cc, 620 lbs. wet, 50 hp (about 44 rwhp).
the 500 was
Kawasaki Vulcan 500LTD, 498cc, weight low 400s wet, power about 46-50 hp
I'll assume Harley's 43 hp (500cc) and 53 hp (750cc) figures are crankshaft - but alone they look VERY competitive to the market, and if you factor in the 480 lbs wet weight which is lower than everything but the new 500X (which is really a slightly different market bike), the S40 or the discontinued Vulcan 500, that's pretty darn good.
It seems to me that this motor should be amenable to some serious tuning..........
Interesting bikes, I'm pretty happy with my XR1200, puts almost the same smile on my face as the M900 does.
I'm pretty easy to please I even enjoyed riding a XLCR recently when I did a Retro Tour http://www.retrotours.com/ (http://www.retrotours.com/), 4 speed, tons of torque, shifting required quite a lift of the boot and braking required a full fist on the front lever, still I found it to be a pleasant experience. - Gene
A watercooled twin at 500cc? 4 valve?
might make some decent power...
The 750 only makes 54hp.
Also, I don't know if this has been said yet, but this is a direct response to the Yamaha Bolt. Yes, the engine sizes are a bit smaller, but I think target market is the same, in HD's eyes.
nowhere I see who makes the ECM . . . Delphi?
Quote from: twolanefun on November 05, 2013, 12:31:32 PM
I'm pretty easy to please I even enjoyed riding a XLCR recently when I did a Retro Tour http://www.retrotours.com/ (http://www.retrotours.com/),
Lol, that guy lives a mile or so from me.
Quote from: ChrisK on November 05, 2013, 02:11:36 PM
The 750 only makes 54hp.
Also, I don't know if this has been said yet, but this is a direct response to the Yamaha Bolt. Yes, the engine sizes are a bit smaller, but I think target market is the same, in HD's eyes.
I disagree, the Bolt was meant as Sportster competition.
This was meant as a smaller, lighter bike for the world market AND as a Blast replacement for the Harley dealer MSF courses, but someone decided it could sell here to consumers too.
And perhaps even might be a tool to make people more comfortable with the V-rod powertrain and a venue to future V-rod based models.
Quote from: Darkmonster620 on November 05, 2013, 02:30:44 PM
nowhere I see who makes the ECM . . . Delphi?
I would expect so, but I can't say for sure.
Quote from: Kev M on November 05, 2013, 03:35:12 PM
And perhaps even might be a tool to make people more comfortable with the V-rod powertrain and a venue to future V-rod based models.
No complaints from this VRSCR owner. ;)
Mine made a best of 120.3 at the tire with basically a tune and a half hour's worth of punching holes in the factory mufflers and tossing the airbox lid.
I see some V-Rod in that engine but for the most part I don't think there are many interchangeable parts, at least externally.
Quote from: Speedbag on November 05, 2013, 03:55:00 PM
No complaints from this VRSCR owner. ;)
Mine made a best of 120.3 at the tire with basically a tune and a half hour's worth of punching holes in the factory mufflers and tossing the airbox lid.
I see some V-Rod in that engine but for the most part I don't think there are many interchangeable parts, at least externally.
Oh not saying it's physically interchangeable, just a derivative of the same engine family.
I think we are missing the obvious benefit to the 750/500 added to the HD line:
Sportster owners will never again need to wipe their tears with a black bandanna from ridicule for riding a "girly bike". [laugh]
Yeah that's funny. But I never worried about that with my XR1200 and the recent variations they have done like the 48s have caught on with the young guns as well as the Ladies. I don't hear much chatter in the community about girly bikes. - Gene
I'd ride that.
Then again if it's got two-wheels, I'm in. ;D
Quote from: Kev M on November 05, 2013, 04:40:24 PM
Oh not saying it's physically interchangeable, just a derivative of the same engine family.
Yep.
Quote from: baron von leaf peeper on November 05, 2013, 05:34:23 PM
I'd ride that.
Then again if it's got two-wheels, I'm in. ;D
Haha... Bingo!
Did some digging around online to learn what I could about this thing and how it relates to the current V-Rod.
Engine is called Revolution X (V-Rod was/is just Revolution), both right and left hand engine covers seem to be bespoke and slightly smaller, and is SOHC (V-Rod is DOHC) with different cam covers. The newb gets a 6-speed trans (wish my VRSCR had this), where the V-Rods all have been 5-speed. The whole engine/trans package seems to be more compact overall, which is good since the V-Rod's is pretty damn big. Difference between the two new displacements is bore only, no doubt for parts commonality.
A little study makes me wonder what, if anything in terms of parts, is shared with the V-Rod other than the general layout and liquid cooling. It would appear that the engine breathes from the right side like other Harleys (same general single-throat EFI setup for more parts commonality?) versus vertically on the V-Rod (for those not in the know, the "gas tank" on the V-Rods is actually the airbox lid, housing velocity stacks on top of the throttle bodies).
The V-Rods respond well to hop-ups, and I wonder how long it'll take for goodies to start appearing for these. For some reason I see these things getting dirt-tracked... [evil]
Quote from: Speedbag on November 06, 2013, 03:00:19 PM
For some reason I see these things getting dirt-tracked... [evil]
Well the best, XR750, is getting old for sure and there are legitimate newer competitors these days but the motor characteristics of this new motor on paper does not appear to be good flat track material, we'll see. FWIW the Kawsaki Versys motor did some butt kicking this year but the HDs are still in there as well as the Lloyd Brothers Ducati. - Gene
Oh, I'm not talking organized, legitimate competition.... [evil]
My wife has said thats her new bike right there as soon as she saw 25'' seat height and 54 hp she loves the look but will need pullback bars ,,, she has been looking for 4 years to replace her 250cc rebel but everything she tried was to tall, or handling compromised like 883 low .2015 till its available in Thailand and the price will be 1305% more than USA with import tax .
2015 Harley Davidson Street 750 & 500 New Model (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFBxCdsytzU#)
Digging the 'RDX800'.... [thumbsup]
The RDX and Urban do look sharp. Gotta say the carbon and billet hubs for the spoke wheels on the first one... mmmmm yeah.
The stock look of these bikes leaves me rather flat. But what those guys did [thumbsup]
Quote from: twolanefun on November 05, 2013, 05:09:30 PM
Yeah that's funny. But I never worried about that with my XR1200 and the recent variations they have done like the 48s have caught on with the young guns as well as the Ladies. I don't hear much chatter in the community about girly bikes. - Gene
Yeah it was all in jest. I haven't actually heard the girly bike comment in many years and not from anyone younger than 55.
Quote from: memper on November 08, 2013, 03:45:21 PM
Yeah it was all in jest. I haven't actually heard the girly bike comment in many years and not from anyone younger than 55.
Or emotionally older than 10 :D
the bike's going to sell to many Vstar and VTX customers IMO.
There's a big gripe-fest over on Motorcycle Daily as they debate the made in KC slogan.