Hey all,
I was at my local dealer and found out that Ducati is selling the DP cam kit including the ECU for around $700. I know the cams will work but what about the ECU?
I have heard that because the new bikes (HM in this case) do not come with the red ket that the ECU may not be compatible.
Anyone know for sure?
It works. I dont think think the cams fit but ECU does. here are the dyno graphs for an HM1100 Cam kit ECU on an S2R1k. bet you didnt see the answer comming so easily did ya?
Torque
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2217/2373038744_bd8b20e914_o.jpg)
HP
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3061/2373038660_0a0fc9c065_o.jpg)
A/F
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2062/2373038624_faf18e0932_o.jpg)
NICE!
Thanks He Man!
Was it just plug and play or was there some tuning involved?
Plug Play and tune. If you can find the original owner of those (gusduc on TOB), or talk to Ivan on this board, he was with gus when they did the dynos.
How do you know the cams will fit? if the cams fit ( and do you know how much of a performance increase there is with those cams?) and the ECU fits, im sure you can squeeze a nice fat number of tq onto the curve. Do you think you can do the cams with the engine on the bike?
Quote from: He Man on July 30, 2008, 07:17:08 PM
How do you know the cams will fit? if the cams fit ( and do you know how much of a performance increase there is with those cams?) and the ECU fits, im sure you can squeeze a nice fat number of tq onto the curve. Do you think you can do the cams with the engine on the bike?
While I was at my dealer discussing the kit, Mark (salesguy) mentioned they were thinking of doing the kit on a DS motor for their race bike. I wouldn't think they would consider it if it wouldn't work, no?
During our discussion we never mentioned compatibility of the ECU but they were pretty sure the cams would work. I personally couldn't imagine the cams not fitting. They run the same heads on the DS1100 as on the DS1000 right? IIRC the only difference is the larger bore for the displacement increase. The HM runs a B & S of 98 x 71.5 mm and the S2R1K runs a B & S of 94 x 71.5 mm.
i woudlnt doubt they would phyiscally fit, but what about the fueling? are HM1100 valves larger?
Quote from: He Man on July 30, 2008, 07:43:34 PM
i woudlnt doubt they would phyiscally fit, but what about the fueling? are HM1100 valves larger?
Thats a great question that I really don't know the answer to. I can't ever remember reading anything about larger valves in a review anywhere and the media is usually pretty good about mentioning all the upgrades when a new model comes out. I'll go back and check all the articals I have on the HM and on the DS1100 motor in general and see if I can find any info.
To me it really doesn't matter. I'm in it for the DP ECU and I may install the cams but I plan on going the PCIII route once the O2 is disabled from the system. I have been running the bike with it removed since last year and it runs ok but a little down on power IMO. I posted the dyno chart on TOB but here it is again in case you missed it.
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/MonstermashS2R/img022.jpg)
Ok here is what I found out....
The part numbers for the heads are exactly the same. The part number is - 301.2.233.1A Complete vertical head. If the parts are the same that would indicate that the valves are the same.
The part numbers for the cams are almost the same. In the example I'm using the cam from the vertical head.
DS1100 - 148.1.285.2A Vertical head camshaft
DS1000 - 148.1.285.1A Vertical head camshaft
I wonder what the difference is being only one number off?
Thats a bit low from what ive seen, i want to get the ECU as well. My bikes been running very strange lately. it seems like a good price, Pro Italia has got it for $699. The cams would be useless if you dont install them. I dont know what type of cam it is either. Race cams generally leave the valves open longer, but the intervals become shorter. So to make up for it, you dump more fuel into it. Yes, youd get more power, but how much power? How will your fuel economy be affected (i only get 35mpg most of the time, and only 28mpg if im not lane splitting). How much money will you spend on fixing the fueling issue?
its all relative to what you want. for me? its just a cheap alternative to DS1000 DPECU, and i could use the cam as motorcycle art :) I doubt anyone would purchase the cams its like buying a motorcycle when there is no more gasoline. Moreover, for the same price as the HM1100 DPECU, you could get an RB3 unit which has much more features than a DPECU+PCIII combo. What year is your 1k? 06 or +?
Regarding the different part numbers, maybe the camshaft for the DS1100 has larger diameter? that would mean machining the cam or the heads.
Quote from: He Man on July 30, 2008, 08:09:16 PM
Regarding the different part numbers, maybe the camshaft for the DS1100 has larger diameter? that would mean machining the cam or the heads.
The cams cannot be a larger diameter otherwise the head would be a completely different part number right?
Quote from: He Man on July 30, 2008, 08:09:16 PM
Thats a bit low from what ive seen, i want to get the ECU as well. My bikes been running very strange lately. it seems like a good price, Pro Italia has got it for $699. The cams would be useless if you dont install them. I dont know what type of cam it is either. Race cams generally leave the valves open longer, but the intervals become shorter. So to make up for it, you dump more fuel into it. Yes, youd get more power, but how much power? How will your fuel economy be affected (i only get 35mpg most of the time, and only 28mpg if im not lane splitting). How much money will you spend on fixing the fueling issue?
its all relative to what you want. for me? its just a cheap alternative to DS1000 DPECU, and i could use the cam as motorcycle art :) I doubt anyone would purchase the cams its like buying a motorcycle when there is no more gasoline. Moreover, for the same price as the HM1100 DPECU, you could get an RB3 unit which has much more features than a DPECU+PCIII combo. What year is your 1k? 06 or +?
Yeah the dyno numbers are a bit low which is the problem I'm having. The bike
runs great but it's down on power compared to when the O2 was plugged in. I didn't really have too much of a surging problem but it backfired all over the place on decel which drove me freakin' crazy.
Fuel economy is high on my priority list when it comes to the bike. To me it's a toy and if I have to spend a few extra dollars at the pump for more performance then I can live with that.
As far as the Rapid bike, I would pay .12 cents for one fo those things. I've read a few posts where people love them and I've read a few where they can't get the thing to work at all. It's still too new and there are no tuning centers anywhere near where I live. Not to mention the recent thread of them pulling out fo the U.S. - I'm all set thanks...
I think the answer is the HM cams and DP ECU. I have to have my valves done shortly so I'll have Eric install the cams at the same time. I was planning on having the stock cams degreed at the same time so how much more work could it be to just throw them in?
Talk to GusDuc. He did not get the cams, just the ECU. In fact, I think that he bought the standard DP ECU for the HM, from someone that upgraded to the newer DP ECU+Cams for the HM.
I believe that it runs great, but he needs to remove power from the ECU periodically because it seems to lock up, probably an incompatibility with the immobilizer, or something else within the gauge cluster.
We both had our bikes run on the same dyno, with virtually identical results. I think that particular dyno is stingy. The AFR sure looks good. He and I talked about adding a switch in the return path for the ECU, just to make it easier to reset it without lifting the tank and disconnecting the battery. I need to follow up with him on this to see if he still wants to do it.
Question.
Would a stock HM ecu work with the S2R1000? im not sure what the new immobilizer is like. But if it does, you could get a 2nd hand ecu and buy a pc3.
Why would the ECU lock up? i dont understand how it would take time for the gauge cluster to realize its the wrong ecu. Perhaps theres an extra code in it specificly for the HM cluster that ours cannot read? If you wire a switch in it, youd have to constantly fix the clock, but i guess that is a moot when we're talking about a cheap DPECU. How often does it need to be reset?
Quote
The cams cannot be a larger diameter otherwise the head would be a completely different part number right?
It would seem so. Maybe its just a more aggressive cam?
Quote from: He Man on July 30, 2008, 10:13:22 PM
Question.
Would a stock HM ecu work with the S2R1000? im not sure what the new immobilizer is like. But if it does, you could get a 2nd hand ecu and buy a pc3.
Why would the ECU lock up? i dont understand how it would take time for the gauge cluster to realize its the wrong ecu. Perhaps theres an extra code in it specificly for the HM cluster that ours cannot read? If you wire a switch in it, youd have to constantly fix the clock, but i guess that is a moot when we're talking about a cheap DPECU. How often does it need to be reset?
It would seem so. Maybe its just a more aggressive cam?
Stock ECU's come installed in the bike pre-progrrammed to the bikes existing keys. I suppose you could order a stock one from Ducati and program it to your Monster. It's worth looking into I suppose. With that in mind maybe it would be a better idea to just order an ECU from an DS M1000 and then tune it with a PCIII.
The big question is......how much is a stock ECU?
when you said order a stock DS1000 ecu, you mean a M1000ie ECU right? Those are the ones that do not have O2 sensor. If you can grab a virgin stock M1000ie ECU and throw it on for under $300, and $200-300 for a PCIII. We're in buisness.
1 other thing to research. i know the S2R1000's idle is controled by a stepper motor. is the m1000 the same?
Quote from: He Man on July 30, 2008, 10:36:37 PM
1 other thing to research. i know the S2R1000's idle is controled by a stepper motor. is the m1000 the same?
Hmmmm.... good question. Why would it be any different unless the stepper motor is somehow connected to the O2 sensor......
Quote from: He Man on July 30, 2008, 10:36:37 PM
when you said order a stock DS1000 ecu, you mean a M1000ie ECU right? Those are the ones that do not have O2 sensor. If you can grab a virgin stock M1000ie ECU and throw it on for under $300, and $200-300 for a PCIII. We're in buisness.
Yes a stock M1000ie. They have the same motor as the S2R1K only without the O2 sensor. Now the question is how much for the stock ECU. I guess it's an excuse to take a ride over to my dealer tomorrow. ;D
Monstermash, if you get the kit, and don't want the cams, let me know, eh?
I'll take 'em off your hands.
M1000 does not have stepper motor idle control, nor O2 sensor.
Brand new ECU's are virgin, they only become married to your instrument cluster after installation.
Not sure if that only happens after a red key procedure or not.
If a 2nd hand ECU is not virgin, it's worthless to you.
Quote from: Speeddog on July 31, 2008, 12:55:26 AM
Monstermash, if you get the kit, and don't want the cams, let me know, eh?
I'll take 'em off your hands.
M1000 does not have stepper motor idle control, nor O2 sensor.
Brand new ECU's are virgin, they only become married to your instrument cluster after installation.
Not sure if that only happens after a red key procedure or not.
If a 2nd hand ECU is not virgin, it's worthless to you.
I assume the ECU controls some function of the stepper motor, so without it, the m1000 ecu is useless on the S2R1k unless you find some other way to control the idle? I have no idea how a stepper motor works so im not sure if that statement is true or not. If its a mechanical device then it should not matter. right?
the only ds1000 original fitment open loop with idle valve control std 5.9m ecu is from the multistrada.
the dp ecu fuel maps will vary for model and capacity somewhat, but the spark maps should be fairly consistant, so i'd have no issue using the ecu with a pc3 if that's the way you wanted to go. personally i'd use the ultimap u59, but i'm my local support, as opposed to many of you who don't have that.
the difference in the cams is physical - the heads from '06 onward are different. i think it's nose length or something like that. if you look at what std cams fit which models (you can do an application search with the softway) i think you'll find all '06 on models - 1000 and 1100 - use the same cams. the '03 to '05 motors use the earlier part number cams, both std and dp. the two dp part number sets are the same grind, just with the physical difference as above.
gus had a lot of hassles getting his to work, but it turned out to be to do with the dds diagnostic tool from what he told me. when they used the older mathesis diagnostic tool it worked fine. the dds is smarter than the mathesis, but that also means it won't let you do certain things if it thinks you shouldn't be. it's not as annoying as the bmw gt1 (it's german), but depending on how you're going about things it might not work. the mathesis will let you do anything pretty much.
the dp kit ecu is just an open loop 5.9m/5am, so it should work in all of them. but having said that, there are subtle differences that could certainly upset the dash. i don't think it's the immobilisor that's the issue - if it was it would just light the immobilisor light and that'd be it. from what gus described to me it just sounds like the dash throwing a bit of a hissy fit, like the 999 ones used to.
Quote from: He Man on July 30, 2008, 10:36:37 PM
when you said order a stock DS1000 ecu, you mean a M1000ie ECU right? Those are the ones that do not have O2 sensor. If you can grab a virgin stock M1000ie ECU and throw it on for under $300, and $200-300 for a PCIII. We're in buisness.
1 other thing to research. i know the S2R1000's idle is controled by a stepper motor. is the m1000 the same?
Where is this stepper motor located? what does it actuate?
I believe he is referring to the idle air control (idle valve control...etc).
it is a valve that controls the idle of the bike by opening up an air port similar to opening up the air bypass screws. you will see vacuum tubes coming off of the unit and heading to the intake manifolds.
If you close these off the idle drops because you have just shut down the air leak and the bike will run rich. the ECU knows when the idle air control is working and adjusts the fuel accordingly.
Running a ecu from a bike with no idle air control (IAC) non IAC bike would possibly work as the cold start map may just treat the bike as a non IAC version. You would want to remove the IAC and set the bike up with a CO meter. I would think if you put a IAC ECU on a non IAC bike the ecu will be trying to work the IAC and compensate for the air leak. It may still work depending on what the ECU is trained to do when the IAC fails, I would bet you would at least have a check engine light on.
The difference in the Camshafts is in length. If you have a early DS1000 motor you will need the newer (shorter in depth) cam end caps . you may also ned to check that the cam oil feed hole lines up. They will fit.
But its not a stepper motor right?
I am not up 100% on the definition of a stepper motor
But it is not a simple on off switch. It varies the opening incrementaly.
Quote from: ducvet on August 01, 2008, 03:34:28 PM
I am not up 100% on the definition of a stepper motor
But it is not a simple on off switch. It varies the opening incrementaly.
Think of a stepper motor as the equivalent of a digitally controlled motor. Each time you send a pulse to it, it moves a precise amount. Thats a bit of an oversimplification, but in general they provide a cheap way to precisely control the position of something like a valve that lets more or less air into the system.
yes, it's a stepper motor, by definition capable of fine adjustment, working as an air control valve.
So the only DS motor with a stepper motor is the Multi. So that means that the Hyper DP ECU should work right?
Quote from: Monstermash on August 01, 2008, 06:33:28 PM
So the only DS motor with a stepper motor is the Multi. So that means that the Hyper DP ECU should work right?
S2R1000 has the stepper motor, according to ducati parts manuals.
Quote from: Speeddog on August 01, 2008, 07:08:38 PM
S2R1000 has the stepper motor, according to ducati parts manuals.
I thought Brad mentioned the Multi was the only one. So that means that the Hyper DP ECU won't work??
The hyper works, i gave you proof. The Stepper motor started in 06 when they elminated the fast idle lever on the DS1000s. anything form there on should have the stepper.
Quote from: He Man on August 01, 2008, 09:22:06 PM
The hyper works, i gave you proof. The Stepper motor started in 06 when they elminated the fast idle lever on the DS1000s. anything form there on should have the stepper.
I thought you had used it and it worked. Did you need to bring it to the dealer to have it installed or did you just plug it in and ride?
So I have an 07, which means I have the stepper. So your saying that the Hyper has the stepper as well?
i didnt use it, i just talked to gusduc about it since i was trying to buy it before they did the price increase. (use to be 549.99 or something like that)
But as stated before you still have to do some tuning with it to get it to work.
The 07 has a stepper motor on the S2R1k. Im about 90% sure the hypermotard is the same. If u get a chacne to see one, just see if it has a fast idle lever on the left hand controls.
Quote from: He Man on August 01, 2008, 09:37:02 PM
i didnt use it, i just talked to gusduc about it since i was trying to buy it before they did the price increase. (use to be 549.99 or something like that)
But as stated before you still have to do some tuning with it to get it to work.
The 07 has a stepper motor on the S2R1k. Im about 90% sure the hypermotard is the same. If u get a chacne to see one, just see if it has a fast idle lever on the left hand controls.
The Hyper does not have the fast idle lever.
As far as tuning, how much adjustability is there?
No fast idle lever = yes to stepper motor.
How much adjustment? i cant tell you. But it should be the same as any other DPECU.
the idle control system using the stepper motor controlled bypass valve was introduced with the multistrada in '03. it was not used on 1000m or 1000ss models. all these models were open loop.
from '06 it was fitted to all models excepting the ss. all sport classics, s2r 1000, multis and hypermotards have it. all these models are closed loop as well with the o2 sensor.
all dp ecu are open loop, the same functuionally as the earlier open loop std ecu ('03 - '05 multi, 1000m, 1000ss). the only adjustment available is the idle mixture trimmmer.
Ok so the cams and the ECU are on their way.
I had them shipped priority so I should see them by Thursday or so. [thumbsup]
Cool man, whered you order it from? and how much?
Quote from: He Man on August 03, 2008, 07:41:35 PM
Cool man, whered you order it from? and how much?
I found a deal on Ebay. Both items brand new in the boxes.
I made sure I paid with Paypal so if they are not what they stated I have a little insurance.
I should know right away if the ECU is new or not because I plan on installing it the minute it arrives.
I'm having my valves done in the next week or so and I'm hoping to install the cams at the same time. That is providing Speeddog doesn't buy them from me.
wow, you are LUCKY! let me know how it goes because i will be keeping my eyes peeled on an ECU. this trumps the shock at this point.
So I have an appointment to have the ECU and cams installed on Friday! [thumbsup]
I couldn't just go that far so I added a K&N air filter and a PCIII to the mix. I won't have the PCIII until next week so I'll install that myself and then have it dyno tuned. I'll post up the results after the tune.
I can't wait!!!! [evil] [moto]
Dude, you suck! You said you were going to wait for me to install my PCIII before you did anything! [laugh]
Quote from: NAKID on August 06, 2008, 07:27:20 PM
Dude, you suck! You said you were going to wait for me to install my PCIII before you did anything! [laugh]
Yeah, I know but I got a great deal on the kit so I just had to do it. ;D
oh man you too??? Looks like ill be working my corner tonight extra late. :-\
I guess it's time for me to chime in ;D
The HM DP ECU will indeed work but you cannot set the Co with the DDS... every time you do it resets when you turn the bike off. No problem with the Mathesis...... as to the dash issue...... well there seems to be some sensor that the ECU is looking for & if I turn the bike off with the blinker on & then restart it without turning it off, the dash stays powered, the tach goes bezerk & the dash will not power down until I unhook the battery. I can also set it off if I move the bike too soon after firing..... as long as I wait 30 seconds or so, no problem. If I try to roll right away or try to start the bike while coasting, dash goes crazy. Sometimes it will do it even if the bike is still & I let it sit. In this case, if I shut off the bike before moving the dash will reset & I can restart it just fine. I have no clue why this happens randomly but it runs so much better than stock that I'm willing to deal with the minor issues. I went back & ran my stock ECU to see if I could replicate the problem but no luck..... it's definately an issue with the ECu & my dash not speaking the exacvt same language. I'm glad I tried the stock ECU again though because I had forgotten how much BETTER the bike runs...... I know the dyno shows a very small increase but the difference in how & where the power & torque are availible is HUGE...... I can actually ride around town @ 3K & the bike is smooth..... my neighbors really appreciate that ;D
Let us know how yors turns out with the cams & ECU [thumbsup]
Well thats odd stuff. I'm not sure what the directionals would have to do witht he bike not starting. Are they LED?
And moving the bike before it runs for 30 seconds? WTF?? Something to do with the speed sensor?
Did you marry the ECU to the bike?
I wish you had chimed in before I went out and bought the ECU. I may have looked for a different solution.
I wonder what would happen if I used a HM dash?
Quote from: Monstermash on August 07, 2008, 10:32:34 AM
Well thats odd stuff. I'm not sure what the directionals would have to do with the bike not starting. Are they LED?
I wonder what would happen if I used a HM dash?
Tom,
Remember the gauges are the the boss of everything for that bike. (aka achilles heel) So they unfortunately get their grubby paws in everything.
I double dog dare you to run the HM gauges! [evil]
~Terry
You can run used guages that have been premated, so as long as the ECU is brand new right? Or am i missing something there? If thats the case, HM guages!! WOOHOO!!!
Quote from: 2001cromo on August 07, 2008, 12:39:58 PM
Tom,
Remember the gauges are the the boss of everything for that bike. (aka achilles heel) So they unfortunately get their grubby paws in everything.
I double dog dare you to run the HM gauges! [evil]
~Terry
Don't tempt me Terry, don't tempt me..... [evil]
Here is the review of the new cams and ecu! [thumbsup]
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=8929.0