Quote from: triangleforge on December 27, 2011, 08:57:45 AM

snipped...."Sergeant, the Spanish bullet isn't made that will kill me!"

But those German ones that probably were shipped with the Mausers sure did the job 

As for the Muzzle loader I absolutely believe you can get outstanding accuracy with black powder

some of the guys shooting the old Winchester 1885 falling block High Wall match rifles will precision seat (with a tool) the bullet head into the lands and grooves at the throat of their barrels....then charge the case and insert it open-mouthed into the chamber...not even assembling the cartridge...that way the bullet head is fully aligned and on the same concentric axis or something with the bore...watched a guy playing with one at the 200 yard line...he was doing more than fine with it

spent a bloody fortune on the rifle and accompanying accuracy tools

The American Civil War saw very high mortality for generals & the officer corps, since the only way to know what was going on at the front was to be within rifle or artillery range of it. I used to co-lead tours of the battlefield of Second Manassas, where we tried to get across to students the idea expanded on by many Civil War historians, that tactics often lagged significantly behind technology, with rifles that could kill at three or four times the effective range of the older weapons on which the close-order, massed-fire battle tactics of the day were based.

Those tactics had changed quite a bit by the time of the Spanish-American war, but not enough to save poor ol' Buckey. I came across Teddy Roosevelt's own account of the incident, which notes: "He had a theory that an officer ought never to take cover - a theory which was, of course, wrong, though in a volunteer organization the officers should certainly expose themselves very fully, simply for the effect on the men; our regimental toast on the transport running, 'The officers; may the war last until each is killed, wounded, or promoted.'"

While I admire the idea that Sedgwick & O'Neill had of showing indifference to enemy fire "simply for the effect on the men," I have to think the way it worked out for them had rather the opposite effect of that intended upon their troops' state of mind.

Quote from: triangleforge on December 27, 2011, 08:57:45 AM
One of the locals here - and a neighbor of a close friend & hunting/shooting buddy - is a retired military marksman and active competitor in long range matches who regularly beats cartridge shooters with a muzzleloader. He's got a knack for engineering and developed a number of specialized tools and techniques for the process, including a nifty grip that fits over the end of a ramrod and can be set to click like a torque wrench when a designated pressure is achieved on the bullet. Just like a cartridge shooter who does precision handloading, he's got an amazing amount of control over every variable in the process.

A couple of 50 grain 777 pellets, a 300 grain XTP and Im good to go.  Inch groups at 100.  I havent tried more than 100 grains, yet.

Quote from: RAT900 on December 27, 2011, 05:49:34 AM
my favorite Whitworth story:

According to popular accounts, on May 9, 1864, during the Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse, Union General John Sedgwick was chiding some of his troops for lying down in a ditch to avoid Confederate sharpshooters at a range of around 800 to 1000 yards. Shots from Confederate Whitworth rifles, easily identifiable due to the shrill whistling noises their hexagonal bullets made in flight, caused members of his staff and artillerymen to duck for cover. Sedgwick strode around in the open and was quoted as saying, "What? Men dodging this way for single bullets? What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Although ashamed, his men continued to flinch and he repeated, "I'm ashamed of you, dodging that way. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Just seconds later he fell forward with a bullet hole below his left eye. At least five confederate soldiers would later claim that they had fired the fatal shot.
Earlier during the war, the Whitworth was responsible for another high-ranking death. On Sept 19, 1863, at the Battle of Chickamauga, an unnamed Confederate sharpshooter mortally wounded Union General William Lytle, who was leading a charge at the time.

Regardless of the war or confrontation I love those stories that start with "Ahhh, there is no way they could hit us from there!" It's probably lost deep in this thread and I'm damn sure too lazy to look for it but I love the story about the Finn sharp shooter who took out hundreds of Russian soldiers during the little short lived skirmish decades ago between those two countries. He kicked their ass. Another "He can't hit us from there" story!

Quote from: rgramjet on December 26, 2011, 08:05:40 PM
I like Thompson Centers but can't stand the "bone collector" ad campaign......reminds me too much of the paulie jr Coleman grills.  Post up a review after you shoot it!  Do you use pellets or loose powder?  100 grains? 

I have an old, blued Knight that shoots very consistently.  Love to get a new style, break action in stainless but cant justify it yet.   The Savage smokeless powder muzzle loader is awesome! 

I did not want the Bone Collector per se. I just wanted the triumph but paid cost so really couldn't complain. I wanted the gun because of the design to limit kick. Bleeding and bruising are not safe for me so this was the deciding factor in the gun.

I added a Nikon 3x9 to complete the package.

I shoot 100 grains of pyrodex or two pellets with a 240 grain sabot. The gun has almost no kick at all. I was shocked.

It is extremely accurate. I sighted in 2 inches high at 100 yards. So i should be good out to 150 yards. The one thing that is weird is that once the gun is fired the sabots go in harder and harder. Something I will get used to. I bought a bore snake to make field cleaning a little easier.

Cleaning couldn't be easier as this is a soap and water gun. The in lines are a dream to clean. The breach comes out by hand. There is a knob on the end of the trigger assembly to make the barrel break away similar to how the encore breaks open.

Couldn't ask for more in a muzzleloader.

Quote from: fastwin on December 27, 2011, 05:39:15 PM
Regardless of the war or confrontation I love those stories that start with "Ahhh, there is no way they could hit us from there!" It's probably lost deep in this thread and I'm damn sure too lazy to look for it but I love the story about the Finn sharp shooter who took out hundreds of Russian soldiers during the little short lived skirmish decades ago between those two countries. He kicked their ass. Another "He can't hit us from there" story!

there is a Simo Hayha aka "white death"  shooting competition in Finland now. 

Quote from: ducatiz on December 27, 2011, 10:43:03 PM
there is a Simo Hayha aka "white death"  shooting competition in Finland now. 

do they use Russians for targets?

Quote from: RAT900 on December 28, 2011, 04:47:26 AM
do they use Russians for targets?

lol i doubt it.

i have a Finn "Skye" Mosin, it's easily the best Mosin I've seen.  They have a long history of using Russian designed weapons, but improving them.

They took the original M39 and put a sharp-shooter quality barrel on it and headspaced them perfectly and made their own 762x54r loads which put the russian stuff to shame.  Even the Russian "snaypersky" stuff isn't as good. 

Look what they did with the AK platform -- created the far superior Valmet AKs.  I have an M76 and it's by far a superior rifle in every aspect -- they chose to use NATO rounds as well for their military versions and redesigned them to support a smaller load (except for the 7.62 models).

I also have a Valmet Hunter which I wanted to convert to a Galil someday (but that was when you couldn't get galils cheap...)  now cia sells them for $500

I recall when Valmets were the closest you could get to an AK...always wanted one but did not want to shell out the bucks

then the early Clayco AKs appeared then the flood of Norincos and Poly's, Kassnar's etc...

I scratched my AK itch on all of them and today have none of them

I've never seen a Kassnar AK.

I have a NIB Clayco Polytech if you want to scratch that itch again...  complete except for the happy switch.

I love my Norinco MAK.  I have it (legally) converted to an E. German style and its absurdly accurate within 200 yd or so -- within a 12" plate, I'm deadly.  Those chinese receivers are thicker and much better than the russian stuff.

Quote from: ducatiz on December 28, 2011, 05:51:20 AM
I've never seen a Kassnar AK.

I have a NIB Clayco Polytech if you want to scratch that itch again...  complete except for the happy switch.

I love my Norinco MAK.  I have it (legally) converted to an E. German style and its absurdly accurate within 200 yd or so -- within a 12" plate, I'm deadly.  Those chinese receivers are thicker and much better than the russian stuff.

They (Kassnar) were the importers of the blond wood FEG Hungarians....hmmmm is the Clayco the one with the nasty black plastic furniture and the crapo parkerizing/bluing(?)  I love the look of that rifle

Quote from: RAT900 on December 28, 2011, 06:38:58 AM
They (Kassnar) were the importers of the blond wood FEG Hungarians....hmmmm is the Clayco the one with the nasty black plastic furniture and the crapo parkerizing/bluing(?)  I love the look of that rifle

AHHH I forgot about the old FEG guns.. those were nice.  I have a later Hungarian and I picked up a milsurp parts kit which I'll someday mate with the receiver I have... sigh.  time..

No, Clayco and KFI imported some beautiful polytechs -- solid maple furniture and beautiful bluing.  Most of the polytechs are machined receivers but these were stamped 1.8mm sheet metal.  They are absurdly rigid compared to the russian 1mm receivers.

I would take the old crap looking one in a heartbeat...they are bringing in some dollars these days

Quote from: RAT900 on December 28, 2011, 06:50:30 AM
I would take the old crap looking one in a heartbeat...they are bringing in some dollars these days

I had a Maadi that was like that.  Looked like crap but shot like crazy.  Nearly had to turn it in because they sort of forgot to weld over the happy switch holes... lol

I've got an old British Martini Henry 577-450 - I swage and paper patch a 480 grain bullet and load it with 105 grains of 1F, felt wad and lube cookie.  I have put hits on a 12" steel plate at 600 yards with it.  You need to be 72" high at 100 to be on at 600.  Pretty fun. 

I also built a 45 caliber fast twist underhammer muzzleloader that takes the same bullet and 120 grains of 2F - its basically a Sharps that loads from the front. 

I made some swaged paper patch bullets for a guy in Switzerland that built exquisite Billinghurst style underhammers - they shot them at 1000 yards there with good results.

I have to finish some paper patch bullets for a local guy here that is building Peabody Martini target rifles - if they work well, I'll probably be his demo shooter in BPCR competitions.