Sand castle continues to crumble.....
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13065/Liggett-admits-he-now-finds-it-very-difficult-not-to-believe-Armstrong-took-drugs.aspx#ixzz29NAw0NAK

All the logic and witness testimony in the world shouldn't matter where they have blood tests.

USADA simply can't get around that problem.

If they are going to require drug testing with blood tests, and then they are going to ignore the blood tests in favor of testimony, then they should fold up and quit.  They have no credibility.

it's scary to think that only witness testimony is enough to convict you.

The criminal investigation is over, not to mention the heart of it was a RICO over federal funds via US Postal being used for drugs- not over what Lance put in his body.

The problem is with the UCI, not USADA.  They knew people were beating the tests and did nothing about it- the hemocrit test was a joke....basically dope to the point <=50 and you're free and clear.

The real fallout will be over the people who made millions off of Lance- ie Trek, Carmichael, etc.  Trek supposedly dropped the Lemond line of bikes because Greg was outspoken with allegations about Armstrong's drug use.

Quote from: muskrat on October 15, 2012, 07:08:08 AM
it's scary to think that only witness testimony is enough to convict you.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/

Over 300 convictions based on testimony, all overturned with lab evidence.

If they are going to rely on blood testing, they should full stop with it.  If the tests aren't good enough then make them better, but to go back in time to punish someone who complied? 

utter absurdity.

Maybe they should go back to the older races.. maybe dig up a few race winners from the 1800s and test their bones for banned substances.. WAIT.. they don't have to do that, just interview somepeople and see. 

Sad state of events, regardless he's guilty in public and career ruined even if the proof doesn't exist.   what really upsets me about today's legal and media world is that the old "having your day in court" saying no longer applies.   You are guilty if the press gets it and that's that. 

Even If he was doped ..he still won brilliantly in front of other racers' that where doped .... so he's still the winner for me 

here's the thing that gets me in all this.

the standard is, pass the tests, you're legal.

why change the standard just to go after Lance?

Quote from: Raux on October 15, 2012, 01:23:05 PM
here's the thing that gets me in all this.

the standard is, pass the tests, you're legal.

why change the standard just to go after Lance?

Quote from: ducatigirl100 on October 15, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
Even If he was doped ..he still won brilliantly in front of other racers' that where doped .... so he's still the winner for me 

And that is pretty much what the average Joe/Jane thinks... 

The standard IS more than just to pass tests.
Athletes have been suspended for not making themselves available for testing, among other reasons.

I'm still not convinced he's guilty and I think USADA should have to do more than refer to what others said.
I like the principle of innocent until proven guilty.

BUT - to proclaim him a hero (even if doped) because some of his competitors (also?) cheated is not very smart IMO.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-did-nike-pay-dollar-500000-to-verbruggen-to-cover-up-armstrong-positive

Quote“In the months or years to come there will be a lot of stuff, probably, revealed. It’s not going to be just a black period for doping. … He’s destroyed people. If you go against him he tries to destroy you. He’s been trying that for 10 years with me.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/must-hear-greg-lemond-speaks-out-in-wide-ranging-interview-on-irish-radio_256161

Quote from: stopintime on October 16, 2012, 12:51:51 PM


BUT - to proclaim him a hero (even if doped) because some of his competitors (also?) cheated is not very smart IMO.

Yes  I Know... the point that I was making was not well express....  I was saying that doping is not fair .... and it should be condemned !  But I've seen is race's thru the years and he won his tour the France whit " panache" !!  

As an ex-national level athlete (10,000m)   I add my fair share of people getting "my place" because they where latter find doped...
and being tested myself for doping ( because of competitions)  I can say that if it don't shows up in the blood ...well...there's nothing there ..!!! those test are rigorous and extremely precise and leave no place for error


so all the USADA story is a full bunch of @#@!#$#%

QuoteItalian police tapped phones and seemed to have planted listening devices on Bertagnolli as he visited Dr Ferrari for tests and doping advice.

QuoteBertagnolli claimed in his statement that Dr Ferrari explained how to avoid testing positive for EPO by taking micro doses of the drug injected into a vein while at an altitude training camp in St Moritz.

QuoteBertagnolli also detailed how Ferrari explained how to blood dope following the introduction of the ADAMS whereabouts protocol that improved out of competition anti-doping controls.

Quote"He advised me how to do the transfusions, saying to take out the blood before going to altitude and then putting it back after altitude, so to better justify the changes in haematocrit and reticolytes, etc."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-documents-reveal-details-of-dr-ferraris-doping-skills

QuoteThe hundreds of pages of evidence against Ferrari include details of payments to a Swiss bank account. Armstrong’s payments total over one million dollars between 1996 and 2006, with annual payments of between $75,000 and $110,000 but Ferrari claims they are for consultancy work.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferrari-hits-back-at-usada-doping-accusations

Knowing how to do it is not a proof of guilt...... everything that you describe there I general knowledge among hi level athlete since the mid 70' (micro-doses, blood tansfusions)

the question is not if they know how to do it  because every hi level athlete know how to cheat !! 

the question is did he did it or not ?


P.s 110 000K is the regular price for having a private physician to help you in your training

Quote from: ducatigirl100 on October 16, 2012, 02:10:47 PM
P.s 110 000K is the regular price for having a private physician to help you in your training

So....if you were the most successful cyclist in history, and you maintain that you were the ONLY clean athlete in a field full of cheaters, why would you choose the most notorious dope doctor in cycling when you could have anyone for that "regular price?"

Do you think that the current Tour de France winner, and outspoken PED opponent, Bradley Wiggins, would go within 100 miles of Michele Ferrari?

QuoteIn 1994, Ferrari was the team doctor for Gewiss. The team had an excellent season, winning many races. In the Flèche Wallonne, the team realized a historic triple victory. Concerned by the domination of the Italian team, some observers pointed a finger of suspicion at the team doctor. Far from calming this controversy, Ferrari compared erythropoietin to orange juice. "EPO is not dangerous, it's the abuse that is. It's also dangerous to drink 10 liters of orange juice".[2] This statement cost him his job as team physician. But his reputation was made, and his name thereafter was associated with use of EPO in particular. In 1995, Ferrari started his own private medical practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Ferrari