Its been a long time since I did this so I need a referesher course

I watched Chris' video already but I still have some minor questions. Please confirm or provide comments/answers on questions below

1) In order to properly check for binding on the closers, I need to have the "opener" rocker arms on BOTH sides (intake and exhaust) of the respective head that I'm working on shifted/slid over so that they are no longer in place above the opening shim
2) Do I need to disconnect the return springs on the closer rocker arms disconnected or can they stay on when i'm checking for binding?
3) Binding only occurs when the closers are tight.If they're super loose binding wont occur.
4) Better to do one closer at a time so that you can isolate binding as needed.

Thanks in advance.

Quote from: EEL on July 21, 2008, 10:55:11 AM
Its been a long time since I did this so I need a referesher course

I watched Chris' video already but I still have some minor questions. Please confirm or provide comments/answers on questions below

1) In order to properly check for binding on the closers, I need to have the "opener" rocker arms on BOTH sides (intake and exhaust) of the respective head that I'm working on shifted/slid over so that they are no longer in place above the opening shim

It's irrelevant whether they're to the side or not, as long as you're at TDC on compression stroke, because there is a gap between the opener rocker and the opener shim.

2) Do I need to disconnect the return springs on the closer rocker arms disconnected or can they stay on when i'm checking for binding?

Can't imagine why you'd need to disconnect the helper springs.

3) Binding only occurs when the closers are tight.If they're super loose binding wont occur.

Binding only occurs if the closers are TOO tight.  Looseness is irrelevant to binding.

4) Better to do one closer at a time so that you can isolate binding as needed.

Huh?

Thanks in advance.

Rotate to TDC on compression stroke, grab the closer shim with your fingers and see if you can turn it.  If you can't without a lot of effort, or, if it binds (thus the term "binding") at points on the way around, then it's too tight.

I was told that binding is measure by spinning the cam gear. Please clarify..

Quote from: EEL on July 21, 2008, 11:55:12 AM
I was told that binding is measure by spinning the cam gear. Please clarify..

Here is my feeling on the matter:  The pulleys are a lot larger than the closer shim, thus they are going to be easier to turn than the shim, even if the shim is too tight.    In addition, you have to make a guess about cam bearing friction, plus the friction of the cam faces on all the rockers it moves.  Why not just confine what you're measuring to only the closer shim in question?

All you have to do is check the difference in how hard it is to turn when the closer is retracted (i.e. you can push down on the valve and move it) and when it's extended (i.e. you can't).  If there's any difference, then it's probably too tight.  The perfect theoretical solution would be one which adding even one ten thousandth (.0001") to the closer thickness would make it start to bind.  In practice, even a whole thousandth (.001") of looseness doesn't gain you enough to brag about unless you're competing for money.  OTOH, .001" of tightness isn't going to make you happy.

Noted. I've always checked by spinning the closer shim and I will probably do this anyways. So back to the questions. I want a double check by spinning the cam gear. If anyone has answers to my questions please free to confirm, deny or clarify questions 1 thru 4.

Thanks

You can check for binding by spinning the cam pulley.
It should turn easily in the range between when it starts to open either valve.

S2R1000, due to the plain-bearing cams, have more drag, but it's not a lot.

In response to your questions;

1) No, you don't have to have the opener rockers slid out of engagement, as long as *they* aren't binding.

2) No.

3) Yes, other than if the openers are binding.

4) Yes. Do one closer until you're satisfied with the clearances, and confirmed that there's no binding, then do the other one.

Short and sweet, just how I like it..

Thanks to both of you guys for the heads up. I'll be using both methods to check

   

Quote from: EEL on July 21, 2008, 03:15:09 PM
I'll be using both methods to check

That's what I like to do...

If I'm changing shims I always take the belts off, 'cause I find it easier to work on it that way - if I'm just checking shims and not needing to change anything, I'll happily use the "if I can turn it easily with my fingers it's loose enough" rule of thumb.

I'd advise pulling the belts at least the first time, so you can get a feel for what "turning easily with your fingers" means...

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QuoteI'd advise pulling the belts at least the first time, so you can get a feel for what "turning easily with your fingers" means...

Still a valve clearance newbie,  but what does pulling the belts have to do with turning the shim with your finger?  By binding are we talking about binding of the shim or binding of the cams? Is it okay to turn the cam pulley in any direction while the belts are off?   

Quote from: uclabiker06 on July 22, 2008, 11:29:37 PM
Still a valve clearance newbie,  but what does pulling the belts have to do with turning the shim with your finger?  By binding are we talking about binding of the shim or binding of the cams?

They're both ultimately the same thing. What you're checking is that the closer isn't so tight it clamps the valve up into the valveseat when the cam pulls the closer arm to "closed" - turning the shim is checking at one end, turning the cam is checking the same clearance at the other end of the closer rocker.

QuoteIs it okay to turn the cam pulley in any direction while the belts are off?   

Yep, at least if you do it gently - you could have the piston right up the top of the cylinder and the valves could touch it, but you won't be able to turn it by hand hard enough to bother anything (at least not without _really_ trying).

The danger of pulling the belts is making sure you get the timing right again when you put them back on. Trying to start the engine with the timing out is very likely to damage things in expensive ways...

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I prefer to move the opener over, for it gives me the option of only feeling the closer.

You can then spin the cam pulley freely and should have no cam interference or friction, the slightest rub and there is some binding going on and you need to double check your shims again.

I also start with rotating the shim, but like the isolation method of moving the opener arm over to make sure its right.

As for the binding questions, the tolerance is so tight that depending on what way you measure the valve clearance, the under closer method or the stacked opener and closer minus opener method, by spinning the shim in its "pocket" you will see it is free of binding, and if you like to verify that you can sine the cam pulley also.

I don't think there is a preferred method here, just one of preference.

Do not use this procedure on 4Valve motors , they require more closer clearance.

only use it on 2 valvers.

i always pull the belts and spin the cams.  you can still spin a shim that's causing the rocker to drag on the cam ime.

Quote from: brad black on July 24, 2008, 05:07:38 AM
i always pull the belts and spin the cams.  you can still spin a shim that's causing the rocker to drag on the cam ime.

+1

Quote from: brad black on July 24, 2008, 05:07:38 AM
i always pull the belts and spin the cams.  you can still spin a shim that's causing the rocker to drag on the cam ime.

Hmmm, closers almost always loosen up rather than tighten though right? So if I'm using the spin-the-shim test when I'm just measuring, but use the spin-the-cam test whenever I change the shims, I'll probaby be OK, right?

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