What's the board's wisdom say about the stock springs on the S4Rs?

For reasons I won't bore you with, I've been running my rear preload at a compromise setting between one-up and two-up, for 11,000km since the bike was new. Needless to say, the rear end hasn't been too flash in either configuration, but that was okay for a while.

Today for the first time I put about 250km on the bike with the rear sag set up just right for me, given the spring.

I say just right, because I set it up with a bit less sag couple of weeks ago, with some very experienced help, and on a long road trial it rode a bit too high. So I knocked a turn and a half off the preload and today took the test run.

Bingo. Front and rear feel nicely matched, rear works nicely on the hwy with std rebound damping and two clicks less compression, ride very comfy and nicely controlled as long as the road doesn't get rough.

For those who want numbers, I'm running about 20mm unladen sag, and about 40-45mm laden, solo, at the rear.

Don't have numbers for the front suspension but haven't touched the standard settings as front has hitherto worked like a dream compared with the rear.

NOW ... those numbers for the rear end suggest to me that the spring is, if anything, a little bit firm for my geared-up weight of about 85kg (185lb).

Nevertheless, my suspicion after today's ride is that the bike would ride better solo on typical Oz country roads with FIRMER springs. She gets a bit harsh where it's bumpy, and I'm thinking we're blowing through most of the travel and getting into the steep part of the rising-rate linkage.

Thoughts anybody?

Let me say in advance, I'm not that interested in a discussion about the numbers, as they get you only so far and I've got them at least close.

Much more interested in hearing from anybody who has fitted firmer or softer springs to an S4Rs, or from people who are very happy with their stock S4Rs set-up and believe they know what nicely set up suspension feels like.

Thanks in advance.

At 185 lbs. geared you are right in the ball park of what I have heard is the target design weight for the S4RS suspension calibration and springs.  If you were as heavy as I am, 240 geared up, you would benefit from re springing and revalve by an Ohlins shop.

I end up running my spring preload so high that the good ohlins suspension doesn't get a chance to work over it's intended full range of travel - the ride might be much better if sprung to my weight and with much less preload.

I talked to the Ohlins certified shop in Bevard, NC. They were very helpful and certainly very knowledgeable. But like I said, I think you are in the "good" weight zone for the bike as delivered.

Maybe you have already done it, but raising the rear ride height 1" and lowering the front 3/8" made a big difference in the handling - better turn in and finishing the turn better.

LA

Thanks for the reply, LA. Yes, I too had heard the S4Rs suspension is supposedly set up for someone about my weight.

But I suppose it is not just weight that counts, it is also how smooth the roads are that you are riding, and how fast you are going. After all, racers at the top level will change springs for different tracks.

Thanks also for the tip on ride-heights. I'll get around to looking at that, but at the moment I'm focused on the way the bike rides the bumps rather than the way she steers.

Anybody else got input?

Is this the best place for this thread? I suppose my opening post was a bit techy, hence the move from the general forum, but I put it there because I thought it might draw the interest of a bunch of S4Rs riders.

I dont think any of the stock components on the Ducatis are "ideal" for anyone. I ride an S2R1000, so i dont have all your fancy ohlins equipment but heres my take.

I learned to ride on a fully setup (suspension wise) bike, shock and forks were set up for track use only, but i rode it that way on the street as well and it make the beast with two backsing RAILED corners. Sold the bike( big mistake ) and picked up an S2R1000. The ideal weight for the S2R 1000 (showa 3 way front, and 2 way sachs rear) is about 150lbs. What do i weigh? 142lbs in the flesh the bike was terrible. I complained the first day i got it. A week later i dumped the bike. I didnt feel the suspension and i was riding way to hard an went hot into a corner, pulled it up and went down.

After that i rode very modest becasue i didnt trust the suspension or myself anymore. So i droped in the right springs (and valves) which were MUCH beefier than the stock springs. The stockers looked like .65 kg/mm. I have .9 kg/mm in there now. The upgrade made the bike BEAUTIFUL! It was the best $600 i ever spent in my whole life. The bike was dailed in by a suspension shop for me and it runs great now.

As for the rear shock? Ducati probably cut back costs by using a shorter spring and making up for it using the preload. So the shock is still less than ideal. The rear bounces all over the place compared to the front (it has been adjusted already and checked out for leaks). Im on my way to picking up a 999 3 way Showa rear and droping in an ohlins spring.

moral of the story, dont believe what ducati says about spring rates and weight. Becasue i was spot on, and they still sucked.

Quote from: Moronic on July 28, 2008, 07:03:56 PM
Anybody else got input?

Is this the best place for this thread? I suppose my opening post was a bit techy, hence the move from the general forum, but I put it there because I thought it might draw the interest of a bunch of S4Rs riders.

S4RS owner here.  Couple of thoughts.
1) double check the shop's work on setting up the bike out of the crate.  The manual will tell you how many clicks the rebound and compression should be from the OEM.  Assuming the setting is correct, the bike is set up for ~175lbs on street riding.  It will be too soft if you ride the street like a race track.  This further assumes that the equipment is in good shape; if you bought your RS new, then it should be (or you should know if you damaged it with wheelies, stoppies, etc...).  If you bought it used...may want to get someone to chekc them out to make sure they are fine.

2) road condition does matter a lot.  If the roads around you is bumpy them you may very well need to deviate for OEM averages.

What I can report is that riding at street speed (not 10/10; not that I can ride 10/10) somethings I feel the ride is soft-ish when I am going city speed and other times when I am more aggressive, the suspension is hard-ish...so I've decided that OEM setting is pretty close to what I need.  Oh, I weight just a hair under 170 including gear.

Quote from: CDawg on July 29, 2008, 06:46:52 AM
S4RS owner here.  Couple of thoughts.
1) double check the shop's work on setting up the bike out of the crate.  The manual will tell you how many clicks the rebound and compression should be from the OEM.  Assuming the setting is correct, the bike is set up for ~175lbs on street riding.  It will be too soft if you ride the street like a race track.  This further assumes that the equipment is in good shape; if you bought your RS new, then it should be (or you should know if you damaged it with wheelies, stoppies, etc...).  If you bought it used...may want to get someone to chekc them out to make sure they are fine.

2) road condition does matter a lot.  If the roads around you is bumpy them you may very well need to deviate for OEM averages.

What I can report is that riding at street speed (not 10/10; not that I can ride 10/10) somethings I feel the ride is soft-ish when I am going city speed and other times when I am more aggressive, the suspension is hard-ish...so I've decided that OEM setting is pretty close to what I need.  Oh, I weight just a hair under 170 including gear.

Ok,,, hold on. Are U saying that my suspesion is "F" ed because I do wheelie's & stoppie's ? I can understand that the steering bearing may take a beating if U have to chop the throttle in mid wheelie. Man they come down fast, & hard. Which, I guess when I think about it,, isnt the best thing for the valves in the forks. Tho it is just oil being force through. My seals dont leak. (YET) 

Originally, my S4Rs rode soft. She's set up fairly harsh now. I weigh 200 ish Lbs.

Moronic,

I think the Ohlins hydraulic preload adjuster will fit the OEM shock.
I've got one on the aftermarket Ohlins on my S4, and it's great for adding preload for riding 2-up.

What numbers are printed on your OEM spring?

JDS 07 S4Rs,

Are you running with the OEM springs?

He Man and CDawg thanks very much for your input, you've both been helpful.

He Man very interested to hear your bike worked better with more spring.

CDawg, I bought the bike new and have set up according to manual, including resetting the preload to the stated 11mm (cf spring at full extension). Actually, initially reset to 12; am now at about 10.5.

I will say the S4Rs rear end as delivered is extraordinarily sensitive to set-up. That 1.5 turns on the preload ring makes an astonishing difference to the way it rides.

Something else possibly of interest: we (well, my experienced help) removed the spring, replaced the shock on bike and tested the travel. Was 140mm with the bump stop compressed I think 4mm. Suggests the 148mm stated in the specs is the axle movement on full shock stroke with bump stop compressed to a wafer (or missing).

CDawg, thanks also for your comments on road conditions and personal experience.

I am thinking the hardness when riding aggressively might indicate spring deficiency in those conditions. Am wondering whether Ohlins might have specced the suspenders for city and smooth racetrack use.

Does it make sense that the suspension feels soft at low speed and hard at high? Yes, but only if high-speed compression damping very firm or suspension nearing bottoming out under aggressive use, or both. (Other possibilities likely exist, but this is all I can think of.)

Your experience pretty much matches mine; speculative conclusions differ. I'm thinking that if I want the suspenders to work well riding aggressively, should expect them to feel a bit too firm at low speeds.

Any further thoughts welcomed.

That last 8mm of axle travel is only about 2.5mm at the shock, and the snubber will compress that much further on a hard hit.

Yes. OEM. I have raised the Rear 3/4". Lowered the front to the 2nd line at the top.  & I have increased the Spring tension. I cant remeber how many clicks I have on Rebound or Compression dampening. But it feels good when riding aggressive, & harsh while riding slow.

I read a few threads on the suspesion set-up. Very detailed,,, I must say. & played with this thing for a couple days. These roads out here arnt the smoothest,,, thats for sure.

Quote from: Speeddog on July 29, 2008, 09:32:43 AM
Moronic,

I think the Ohlins hydraulic preload adjuster will fit the OEM shock.
I've got one on the aftermarket Ohlins on my S4, and it's great for adding preload for riding 2-up.

What numbers are printed on your OEM spring?

Speeddog,

thanks for the input.

The spring on my OEM Ohlins shock is an 01092-36/105 L 236.

I'm considering going for the DU333 aftermarket shock for the hydraulic preload adjuster and remote compression adjuster.

Great to hear the preload adjuster sorts out the two-up thing for you.

Am investigating the possibility of simply adding a remote preload thingy to the stock shock with local Ohlins importer. Std spring doesn't leave enough clearance. We're going to look at a shorter spring but I haven't got back to him with the numbers yet. Partly because I want to bring a view on preferred spring rate when I do.

I reckon a spring to accommodate the hydraulic preload adjuster would need to be about 15mm shorter than stock.

If it's not hard to check out, would you mind giving me the numbers on your aftermarket Ohlins spring.

Any comments on how the ride feels?

Quote from: Speeddog on July 29, 2008, 09:48:29 AM
That last 8mm of axle travel is only about 2.5mm at the shock, and the snubber will compress that much further on a hard hit.

Good point. Yes I think we worked out the ratio is about 2.8:1. So the spec is spot-on. Thanks very much for that. I'd overlooked.;

Sump is scarily low at full compression.

One other thing worth mentioning, as I seem to have attracted the attention of some interested and very well informed riders. We put a cable tie on the shock shaft and with the 12mm preload the shock did not bottom into the bump stop on a 400km ride. From memory about 3mm clearance remained.

Nevertheless, the hits felt very hard at times.

Haven't had the opportunity to check after more recent test with the 10.5mm preload. Hits felt no harder but shorter route unavoidably less testing.

Hence my speculation that it is getting into the high end of the rising rate that is bringing the harsh feel. Other possibility heavy high-speed compression damping of course, or even some other hydraulic anti-bottoming aspect I'm not aware of.

Moronic,

I don't have my Ohlins decoder ring on right now, it's at the shop and I'll look later, and get my spring number as well.
I'm a little lighter than you are, but not much.

Ohlins does make different length springs, so I suspect there would be one that would work with the hydraulic adjuster, on your shock.

From measurements I took quite a while ago, the suspension linkage doesn't have very much increase in rate toward the end of travel, most of it is in the first inch or so.

I've spent very little time in the saddle on an Rs, so no FHE on how they feel.
The high speed damping may be too aggressive.
Depends a lot on how you ride and how you like it to feel.

I'm not aware of any hydraulic 'bump-stop' in Ohlins shocks.

The sump oill level may *look* low when the rear is fully compressed, but the g-loading is different when the bike is actually bottoming out like that, compared with a static test in the shop.
And, you've got the deep sump, so no worries there.

My Ohlins is a bit stiff on compression, and I'm at full soft on the adjustment.
Can't really compare it to your shock, as there's no data that I've seen on how the valving is set up vs. aftermarket units like mine.

Quote from: Moronic on July 29, 2008, 10:16:05 AM
with the 12mm preload the shock did not bottom into the bump stop on a 400km ride. From memory about 3mm clearance remained.

Nevertheless, the hits felt very hard at times.

Haven't had the opportunity to check after more recent test with the 10.5mm preload. Hits felt no harder but shorter route unavoidably less testing.

Hence my speculation that it is getting into the high end of the rising rate that is bringing the harsh feel. Other possibility heavy high-speed compression damping of course, or even some other hydraulic anti-bottoming aspect I'm not aware of.

I thought Ohlins' spring rate is linear and not progressive?  I could be wrong.  I would echo Speeddog and fiddle with your compresion setting.  I don't think it is a question of preload here if you are not bottoming-it-out.  Then again, I don't know your road condition so I cannot speculate intelligently.  I thought I remember reading on TOB that Ohlins uses the lightest spring possible and compensate with oil weight and valves so tiny adjustments equal large differences...and that's why folks like'em...very adjustable.