Factoid:

It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than that gallon delivers during combustion.  True.  Where do the ethanol companies get the energy to produce it from?  Fuel oil, coal, natural gas ... you know, fossil fuel.  make the beast with two backsing stupidest thing ever. 

Quote from: mmakay on August 05, 2008, 09:58:36 PM
Factoid:

It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than that gallon delivers during combustion.  True.  Where do the ethanol companies get the energy to produce it from?  Fuel oil, coal, natural gas ... you know, fossil fuel.  make the beast with two backsing stupidest thing ever. 

I'm no fan of ethanol at all, but everything I've read says this statement is just not true.  The articles I've read point to about 30% more out, not the other way around.  so 1.3 to 1.4 out for every one in.

but if you have some good sources I'd love to read more.

It depends on if one does a through cost accounting to include ALL the associated cost. Some, but not all considerations are, fertilizer production (fossil), fossil fuel directly used in corn production, transport, alcohol production, waste water etc. etc.  And none of the estimates I've seen account for the increase in food products related to the feed of livestock (beef, chicken, etc.) increase in grain prices. Overall, talking to agricultural economists that are friends of mine and everything I have seen, ethanol production from corn to use as fuel for transportation is stupid at best. Brazil has more experience and probably does the best job of alcohol production with sugar cane.

Here are just two estimates that are contradictory.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/5062

Recently, Patzek published a fifty-page study on the subject in the journal Critical Reviews in Plant Science. This time, he factored in the myriad energy inputs required by industrial agriculture, from the amount of fuel used to produce fertilizers and corn seeds to the transportation and wastewater disposal costs. All told, he believes that the cumulative energy consumed in corn farming and ethanol production is six times greater than what the end product provides your car engine in terms of power.

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm

We conclude that the net energy value of corn ethanol has become positive in recent years due to technological advances in ethanol conversion and increased efficiency in farm production. We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient as indicated by an energy ratio of 1.24.

LA

Thanks, LA.


I'm lucky in that my sailboat runs a small outboard with a plastic tank.

I know several folks at the marina who are thousands into repair work and looking into class action similar to one started in CA.

economic stats are difficult.  It's like trying to come up with the cost of a Coast Guard rescue for someone stupid who should have to pay back..... if the crew were paid and working anyway, how much can be attributed to the rescue?  fuel and wear and tear on the chopper if it weren't scheduled to fly anyway?  etc. etc.

I hate the idea for lots of reasons, but I am allways skeptical of the math analysis as the spectrum is sooooo wide on this one.

Quote from: DrNo08 on August 05, 2008, 08:18:19 PM
That link is dead, my friend.

Try this one, and you can download the .pdf from the link on the page:

http://www.msra.com/NonOxygenatedFuel/Non-OxyFuel.htm

Do you live in MN?

We've been running blended fuels in AZ for many, many years... I have a `78 Cadillac that I only take to shows, or when I'm in the mood to drive it during the summer, but that's few and far between, it's fuel injected (a $750.00 option in 1978), I keep it on a battery tender & it has 2 Optima gel cell batteries to power it... Starting it after it's been sitting a couple months really sucks, and I have to replace the fuel filter & fuel filter gasket every year because it gets clogged and the gasket corrodes... So far, I think, most of the other lines and such are still o.k., but I know soon I'm going to have to replace fuel injector o-rings and other stuff... I am going to see if I can find someplace that does non-ethanol fuel for collector cars here, but I doubt there are any in AZ due to environmental concerns... I give ethanol a big thumbs down... But I also give hybrids a big thumbs down too, to produce lith batteries is damaging, and the subsequent "recycling" of them is going to be a environmental issue in the future... There are plenty of turbo-diesels in Europe that get better mileage than a bunch of the hybrid vehicles out there...