Quote from: DrDesmosedici on August 06, 2008, 12:07:11 PM
Wait, Italian Companies are difficult? Get outta here 

Good to know about Matris, i'm looking at some aftermarket options for the S4R, but am thinking about lightening up the spinning bits first ... 

Adam

Good idea but if your looking into the Matris stuff at all you had better think about it sooned rather than later as I don't know how much Oncycles still has left. It's always much better to buy something at half off if possible. 

Quote from: ScottieDucati on August 06, 2008, 10:52:36 AM
Bottom line is, anything is an upgrade over stock.  Matris, Penske both make very quality pieces.  Last I checked, a 46HRC was not a bottom-end shock from Ohlins.  One thing you will notice, is Ohlins shocks generally continually evolve and get better with each iteration.  A penske for example you buy today, is largely the same as one you could buy 3-5 years ago.  That's NOT saying it's a bad shock, mind you.  Neither is a Matris, they are all quality pieces.  I had a Wilburs shock that was a work of art, and a very nice shock...

But if you compare apples to apples, there simply is nothing that has the track record or global support to out-match a quality Ohlins unit.

If you go to Dan Kyle, you will save $$$$$$$$$$$$ versus getting one at the dealer.  Matris shocks are on CLEARANCE for $800, which will buy you a 3-way adjustable Ohlins.  I guarantee you the Ohlins is of higher quality and as Dr. Desmosedici pointed out, who are you going to get to support and service your Matris shock??? They have squat for a support network here in the US.

Also, Matris, Penske, Elka, etc... all give shocks to some top national level riders to race... but even Bayliss and Ducati Corse or locally Pegram and his LeoVince Foremost Insurance Ducati must buy their equipment from Ohlins.  People buy it, because it's the best. Period.

Is that to say that for less money than either of those you can get a double-adjustable Penske which will be a phenomenal shock that's easier to service would be a poor decision? Absolutely not, it's a great shock and great support network, built for you at a great price! 

If you aren't seriously track-riding or racing there's no need for a high-end fully adjustable shock, and a Penske is probably your best bet.. but for $800, a Matris isn't exactly cheap (they retail for $1500), and is certainly NOT a better shock than an $800 Ohlins.

This Apples to Apples thing and your last statement on comparing a $1500 shock and an $800 shock.  1, I shouldnt completely let price determine which one is "better" but in this case, on solely price alone, would lead me to believe that the matris shock would be in a higher "class" than the ohlins in question.

Building from this, and the Apples to Apples thing, Sure BMW/Mercedes/Lexus are all luxury cars but you can not compare a 3 or c class car to the LS460.  They are both cars, both made by premium brands but its not really apples to apples here. 

My initial comparison was to point out that you can not makes a statement based only on who the manufacture is.  There still can be a broad range of products that they offer.   

Quote from: OwnyTony on August 06, 2008, 12:27:39 PM
This Apples to Apples thing and your last statement on comparing a $1500 shock and an $800 shock.  1, I shouldnt completely let price determine which one is "better" but in this case, on solely price alone, would lead me to believe that the matris shock would be in a higher "class" than the ohlins in question.

Not to nitpick, but price doesn't always equal quality or class, just what the market will bear for a product.

(Or won't, hence why the Matris's are on clearance ... Even at this price they're not flying off the shelves.)

Not making a judgment call, but price doesn't always equal best...

Adam

Quote from: Monstermash on August 06, 2008, 12:27:22 PM
Good idea but if your looking into the Matris stuff at all you had better think about it sooned rather than later as I don't know how much Oncycles still has left. It's always much better to buy something at half off if possible. 

Well, reducing unsprung / rotating mass is by far the best thing you can do for a bike ... In an ideal world i'd have it all 

Adam

Quote from: DrDesmosedici on August 06, 2008, 12:36:56 PM
Not to nitpick, but price doesn't always equal quality or class, just what the market will bear for a product.

(Or won't, hence why the Matris's are on clearance ... Even at this price they're not flying off the shelves.)

Not making a judgment call, but price doesn't always equal best...

Adam

Hence why I stated that I shouldnt completely let price determine which is the best. 
In the case of matris, i would say that MAYBE the price is to reflect how Matris views where their products lie in relation to the quality of other manufactures.  It is just that they are not established that people are not as willing to buy their product.

Quote from: OwnyTony on August 06, 2008, 12:43:30 PM
Hence why I stated that I shouldnt completely let price determine which is the best. 
In the case of matris, i would say that MAYBE the price is to reflect how Matris views where their products lie in relation to the quality of other manufactures.  It is just that they are not established that people are not as willing to buy their product.

I agree, but in most cases something that costs a significant more than that of the competing model is usually better quality.

If we use the car analogy, a BMW that costs $50K is certainly going to be a better product than a GM/Ford/Chrysler that costs $40K. There is usually a reason why things are more expensive. It might be they are made of better materials, or it might be that you are paying for a name like if you buy a Coach product now vs. 5 years ago. Coach used to make a great product when it was made in the USA, now they are made in China and are not the same quality.

I think this philosophy holds true on most products in any given market. IMO almost everything in this world is over priced. If we use Ohlins as an example, how much do you think it really costs them to manufacture a product. Lets take the DU333 as an example. The thing retails for what $1200? It probably costs less than $100 in parts to produce. To me your paying for the name and reputation at this point.

On the other side of the coin if you look at the Matris stuff, I think your paying more for the product because as a newer company they are still trying to recoup most of the R&D money they had to spend. Although I will say that the Matris shock on my bike is absolutely beautiful and it works flawlessly, but if I had to pay full price for it I never would have bought it.

Ahemn...

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=8273.0

Quote from: Monstermash on August 06, 2008, 01:10:55 PM
I think this philosophy holds true on most products in any given market. IMO almost everything in this world is over priced. If we use Ohlins as an example, how much do you think it really costs them to manufacture a product. Lets take the DU333 as an example. The thing retails for what $1200? It probably costs less than $100 in parts to produce. To me your paying for the name and reputation at this point.

I rekon it costs about $700 to make. This includes labor.

And price does not mean quality. Its usually engineering an reputation. Dainese, engineers great stuff, and have a great reputation, but the end result? their shit is made in vietnam. has anyone tried to wear a no name white tee shirt made in nam? IT DONT FIT! anyone tried a haynes white tee made in nam? Its great! same place, different QC. But dainese jacks their shit up. I dont support outsourcing when it comes to goods that are jacked beyond sky high. I try my best to avoid it. If its known to be Italian Leather, why cant it be made in italy? Likewise, i Ohlins is sweedish right? or swiss? either or, it should be put together there and QC'd there by the locals, otherwise. Ohlins can suck it and we shouldnt pay a premium.

How does $1150 for their top of the line TTX shock equate to a premium?!?  Or $800 for essentially the same shock w/o the hydraulic adjustment?

Yes, I have a Penske on my 851, and had a Penske on my 748 race bike.  I've also had to race bikes with Ohlins shocks, and one street bike with an Ohlins.  I've yet to ride a bike with a Matris, you are correct.  But I'd also wager that your opinion of a part is mostly due to it's flashiness and how it feels on the street, not exactly the paradigm of measuring the performance of said product.

My argument has little to do with what I think, or what you think.

The bottom line is, you go to any club race weekend and you will see Ohlins, Penske and perhaps an Elka tossed in the mix, you go to any national event and it's about the same with more riders on Ohlins and less on the other two.  You go to the world stage and you will be very hard pressed to find anyone not riding on Ohlins equipment.

Their track record is unparalleled, and as an engineer it's a pretty safe assumption to draw that with the sheer wealth of R&D available to a company dominating every echelon of racing, that the development will trickle down to what you and I can buy.

Or wait a minute, I'd rather go with some little known company with zero track record because the materials are machined to look blingy and therefore must be awesome.  Oh and also if I ever want someone at the track or even one of my riding buddies to help me setup or work on it, oh wait, crap, nobody's ever heard or seen of one of these before.... guess I'm SOL unless I send it to the one guy willing to work on it.  Get a grip.

Bottom line is buy what makes you happy and 99.9% of us will never tell the difference between any of the decent aftermarket equipment.  I'll still buy what has local support and a reputation (Ohlins or Penske) versus the "some guy on a forum said this was sweet" brand X.

Quote from: He Man on August 06, 2008, 05:05:47 PM
I rekon it costs about $700 to make. This includes labor.

And price does not mean quality. Its usually engineering an reputation. Dainese, engineers great stuff, and have a great reputation, but the end result? their shit is made in vietnam. has anyone tried to wear a no name white tee shirt made in nam? IT DONT FIT! anyone tried a haynes white tee made in nam? Its great! same place, different QC. But dainese jacks their shit up. I dont support outsourcing when it comes to goods that are jacked beyond sky high. I try my best to avoid it. If its known to be Italian Leather, why cant it be made in italy? Likewise, i Ohlins is sweedish right? or swiss? either or, it should be put together there and QC'd there by the locals, otherwise. Ohlins can suck it and we shouldnt pay a premium.

Quote from: ScottieDucati on August 06, 2008, 07:38:46 PM
How does $1150 for their top of the line TTX shock equate to a premium?!?  Or $800 for essentially the same shock w/o the hydraulic adjustment?

Yes, I have a Penske on my 851, and had a Penske on my 748 race bike.  I've also had to race bikes with Ohlins shocks, and one street bike with an Ohlins.  I've yet to ride a bike with a Matris, you are correct.  But I'd also wager that your opinion of a part is mostly due to it's flashiness and how it feels on the street, not exactly the paradigm of measuring the performance of said product.

My argument has little to do with what I think, or what you think.

The bottom line is, you go to any club race weekend and you will see Ohlins, Penske and perhaps an Elka tossed in the mix, you go to any national event and it's about the same with more riders on Ohlins and less on the other two.  You go to the world stage and you will be very hard pressed to find anyone not riding on Ohlins equipment.

Their track record is unparalleled, and as an engineer it's a pretty safe assumption to draw that with the sheer wealth of R&D available to a company dominating every echelon of racing, that the development will trickle down to what you and I can buy.

Or wait a minute, I'd rather go with some little known company with zero track record because the materials are machined to look blingy and therefore must be awesome.  Oh and also if I ever want someone at the track or even one of my riding buddies to help me setup or work on it, oh wait, crap, nobody's ever heard or seen of one of these before.... guess I'm SOL unless I send it to the one guy willing to work on it.  Get a grip.

Bottom line is buy what makes you happy and 99.9% of us will never tell the difference between any of the decent aftermarket equipment.  I'll still buy what has local support and a reputation (Ohlins or Penske) versus the "some guy on a forum said this was sweet" brand X.

Juding from your ?!?! remark, im assuimg you didnt get the point of my post. Im using clothing manufactures to make a point about money doenst directly mean quality. not the cost of shock equipment.
I never said we are paying Ohlins a Premium on shock components. DU333 Shock is about 900 bucks, which is where im getting the number 600 from based on hours to manufacture it on a large scale, cost of material, and cost of equipment to create the parts. Reasonable? $300 profit for a high tech part that took $ to R&D? Yes.

Im not even going to jump into this debate, because everything is relative. With that said, stock suspension with racetech valves and springs tuend for YOU = better than any "bolt on". its all about the setup.

I agree, and disagree... only because most "bolt ons" (Ohlins, Penske at least) come built for you with appropriate springs (assuming you get them from a good source and not from eBay or something)... but I do agree that any suspension work you do should be setup for you by a pro and adjusted after installation to get your sag #'s and such spot on.

So... if your total budget is $1000, you're far better off buying racetech valves and springs and maybe a used or lower end Penske than you are doing nothing to the forks and "bolting on" an Ohlins.

This sh*t adds up quick to get high end stuff AND have it setup for you.  Trust me, I'm going through all of this right now and am unfortunately very limited because I know exactly what I need to get the bike to handle / feel the way I want it....

For $1000, lets see what i can get done....

Ive spent $600 on Race tech valves and spring + oil + adjustment for my forks. It could of been done for less than 400. But ive never done forks before, so i paid $200 bucks to sit in, watch and learn. With my new forks dialed in, HOLY CRAP. im sure ohlins is better. but could you ride the balls of an ohlins? probably not unless you have $ and alot of time to practice on the track.

So realistically, i ahve $400 left, and hypothetically i have $600.
Realistically what am i doing?
$100 for a 999 3 way showa rearshock.
$110ish for new rear spring (how much is an ohlins rear spring? cant be more than $150 i imagine)
$20 to powdercoat it dark black/blue (think penske)
$20 to have a shop tune it while im sitting on it casue i dont know how to adjust suspensions, + its hard as shit to do it with 1 person
Total cost: $250.

So with the left over money, i could buy racetech goldline valves and throw those suckers in.

Total cost? just under $1,000.

What can you get with an Ohlins? Umm. A shock at best? with enough money to buy a cake ( that might equate to having to spend more $ on a new shock). You wouldnt have any money left over to do the forks. Not to mention, stock Ohlins equipment is no where near the quality of OEM Ohlins. So where does that leave you with? Now the most important question of all. Can you push it to the limit? The difference between a race tech set up on good stock equipment and an ohlins, is mostly rider induced perception at the levels we are discussing. You buy $$ equipment that gives you excellent feedback, so you get more comfortable with your bike. So again, if you have the time and money to practice racing, theres no point in getting a full decked out ohlins.

Look at MotoGP. Riders are always fussing around with the right set suspension setup. they ahve top notch equipment, the best of the best, that we cannot buy since its all still R&D. And all i ever hear is "We're still trying to get it right" and these are the guys that have the corner of their tires flat not the center.

My first bike was a 1995 M944, had 748 stock ohlins internals inside my fork. set up with .95kg/mm springs (same as my set up right now, im suppose to be a .90 according to race tech). My rear suspension was a Fox racing setup. bike was designed for track use. and all i can say is, the suspension ROCKED!!!! the thing railed like a mother make the beast with two backser.

2nd bike (current) stock S2R1000. the suspension made me feel really unsafe. going 55mph scared me. After my $600 investment, HUGE difference. Bike is really good at 90mph+ turns decently, im trying to get the front lowered right now to get a quicker turn in, but im running out of space between my fender and oil cooler. My rear stock Sachs (POS) still gives me a little scare every now and then. I think its 80% wrong spring, 20% me being used to the fox. I learned to ride on a bike that was properly set up with mid range suspension equipment, and ive been spoiled by it. And i can say with just the race tech stuff, my bike is 50% there when matched against my M944. Still need the right rear shock, adjusted properly, and perhaps another 10ft/lbs of tq and i got my old bike back.

Quote from: ScottieDucati on August 06, 2008, 07:38:46 PM


Or wait a minute, I'd rather go with some little known company with zero track record because the materials are machined to look blingy and therefore must be awesome.  Oh and also if I ever want someone at the track or even one of my riding buddies to help me setup or work on it, oh wait, crap, nobody's ever heard or seen of one of these before.... guess I'm SOL unless I send it to the one guy willing to work on it.  Get a grip.

Bottom line is buy what makes you happy and 99.9% of us will never tell the difference between any of the decent aftermarket equipment.  I'll still buy what has local support and a reputation (Ohlins or Penske) versus the "some guy on a forum said this was sweet" brand X.

I'm just curious Scottie, do you always have to be combative every time you reply to a thread?

You think you know everything and quite frankly, it's getting pretty old. While I will admit you have more practical knowledge regarding suspension, I think it's pretty rude for you to come on here and bash me because you think I bought my Matris products because of the bling factor. If that was the case then don't you think I would have gone with the Ohlins? It's a more recognizable name than Matris and everyone would be more impressed with the reputation than that of the Matris so if I were to buy something based on "bling" wouldn't it make more sense to get the product everyone knows?

I did not buy my suspension based on what "some guy on a forum said was sweet" I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I made this decision based on what an experienced, well respected member of the racing community suggested. Not to mention he actually works on suspension every day, it's his job. If I was to make a decision based on what people on a forum said, I would be using Ohlins. Don't get me wrong, I think the Ohlins is great product but if you do a little reasearch on the Matris product you may find that there is quite a bit of technology and R&D that went into it. Is it great looking? Yes it is! Is there anything that says products that perform well can't also be nice looking? No there isn't. Otherwise I'd be giving you crap about that brand new 848 you just bought.

And as far as having someone work on it, be it a buddy or someone at the track, how different do you think the different brands area? I'll tell you, the adjustments are pretty much the same from brand to brand. Suspension is not some black art as some would lead you to believe and setting sag, or compression, or preload is all the same on all the products. The adjustments on my Matris forks are exactly the same as on the stock Showa. The compression damping is adjusted from the underside of the fork lowers and through the axle with a small flat head screwdriver. The rebound is done on top of the forks with a 4mm allen key. The preload is set using the big knob on top of the forks. Whats so hard about that, that I can't find someone to set it up for me if need be?

I won't get into the rear shock but I'm just curious about where you exactly find the high speed compression adjustment on the Ohlins DU333? Oh yeah, thats right, IT DOESN"T HAVE ONE!!! But I'll point out the one on my Matris if you like.......

hehehehe Oh Tom, it's so much fun being heroes on a forum isn't it?  I think with the $$ leftover from your sweet deal on that Matris stuff you could buy a nice leather suit and some thicker skin    I think it's been pretty well hashed out here that the best thing to do is go with what your preferences are and what you like.  Whether it's revalving / springing stock equipment or buying the best of the best, it's all a VAST improvement over stock.  I only took an issue with the blunt statement of Matris > Ohlins.  If you want to compare specific models, then perhaps the Matris is better than the DU333 based on price point and features.  But if you take the Top of the line of each, and retail prices (which are the only basis of comparison because you can always get deals at various sources) where a full on TTX Ohlins runs very comparable price point... wait, no it's actually cheaper retail.... I really can't see how you can possibly say Matris is better than the single most dominant brand in all of motor sport.  It just, doesn't add up... and frankly, isn't true.  Otherwise you'd see people buying them, and winning races with them!

Basically you are right, and I am right, and He Man is right, all on different arguments.

I'll tell just about anybody the exact same thing... get a budget, and go to a pro.  You are far better off going He Man's route than just hopping on eBay and buying whatever you can find that fits your bike.  In fact, I did pretty much the same thing He Man did, only I bartered a full couple days of work at GMD disassembling forks and doing whatever Peter needed done around the shop in order to pick his brain and get my hands on this stuff (everything from Racetech to Penske to Ohlins) for some first hand experience.  Best decision I ever made.

You went to a pro, and coupled a great deal on a nice shock with some pro setup knowledge, a wise decision!

Bottom line is, shop around, try stuff out and get what you're comfortable with.  But if you're going to make blanket statements about something being better than another, it should be backed up by facts, not some guy on a forum's opinion... or for that matter, even "suspension guys" have their own preferences, which really only works to your advantage if they're local.  Nice thing with Ohlins or Penske is that no matter where you buy them, a local suspension guy will know them intimately, I'm not sure the same can be said for any other brand... although you are correct where basic adjustments are pretty similar across all boards.  I'm talking about reference points, ride heights, and service work.  I certainly don't want to have to ship my stuff out to one guy to have it worked on whenever I need it serviced. 

I look around at every  race weekend, and the guys on TV and see only 1 (or sometimes 2) kind of suspension equipment kicking ass, it's  pretty irrefutable evidence of quality and experience within a brand.

I also know there are guys racing on Traxxion Dynamics stuff, Racetech stuff, Wilburs stuff, Penske stuff, Elka stuff, Matris stuff, etc... that can completely ride circles around me.

Thing is, when those guys reach the top level, they all go with Ohlins... for a reason!

BTW, the only stuff I've ever bought and had setup for me brand new was Penske stuff, 99.9% of the reason was our local suspension gurus are phenomenal with it and know it very well.

I'm just bummed out that what I personally need for my bike at the moment is pretty much unavailable with a Penske setup, and it has nothing to do with the shock or forks, and everything to do with changes that need to be made to the chassis and geometry of the bike.... otherwise I'd save the coin and bring her down to Peter to work his magic.

Final word: Get a budget, go to a pro, and trust them to help you out!!!

Quote from: ScottieDucati on August 07, 2008, 07:32:06 AM
I only took an issue with the blunt statement of Matris > Ohlins.  If you want to compare specific models, then perhaps the Matris is better than the DU333 based on price point and features.  But if you take the Top of the line of each, and retail prices (which are the only basis of comparison because you can always get deals at various sources) where a full on TTX Ohlins runs very comparable price point... wait, no it's actually cheaper retail.... I really can't see how you can possibly say Matris is better than the single most dominant brand in all of motor sport. 

Basically you are right, and I am right, and He Man is right, all on different arguments.

Kind of jumping in here but the original "argument" was on comparing the 2 different models, not the brands.  The argument never should have branched off of what was already implied which was, the ohlins du333 vs the matris available at oncycle, the matris > ohlins.....or rather the better value for the price.