Quote from: cmorgan47 on August 18, 2008, 11:11:58 AM
there are 3 types of lies:

lies
big lies
and statistics

At the risk of sounding anal, I believe it's "lies, damned lies, and statistics"  which is attributed to Benjamin Disraeli.

That's one of my favorite quotes.      Probably because of how misused statistics are. 

Quote from: fwtcc on August 18, 2008, 11:20:28 AM
Playing with an R1 in a parking lot is one thing...

  The rest are out on the street, putting other people in danger operating on roads that don't belong to them.

I agree, but we already have laws in place that govern against that behavior. I never said anything about laws that protect people from other people. I fully support heavy fines for idiots who break the law. I was riding home last night and at least two idiots came by me weaving in and out of traffic like fools. Not to mention the guys Ive seen with wheels up on I95 doing 110mph. But they probably took the MSF course too and you see what that did, not a damn thing.

Quote from: DucPete on August 18, 2008, 11:23:22 AM
At the risk of sounding anal, I believe it's "lies, damned lies, and statistics"  which is attributed to Benjamin Disraeli.

That's one of my favorite quotes.      Probably because of how misused statistics are. 

at the risk of sounding pedantic, you're not being anal... but rather, pedantic.
correct on the quote though

 
Pedantic?

If you're going to use a quote, do it right.  I wasn't trying to drag you through the mud. 

Quote from: DucPete on August 18, 2008, 12:13:03 PM

Pedantic?

If you're going to use a quote, do it right.  I wasn't trying to drag you through the mud. 

joking.
sorry for lack of smiley.

With what I've been able to find with a quick google*, in 1999 motorcycles accounted for 0.4% of total vehicle miles traveled in the U.S., but they accounted for 5.5% of the deaths. For every 100,000 miles traveled, 1.3 car occupants died, while 23.4 motorcyclists died. That means a person on a motorcycle was/is 18 times more likely to die than a cager.

I know these are statistics (lies, damned lies, etc.), but to me, it seems like the increased risk of death justifies some reconsideration of life insurance.

*http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/Rpts/2001/809-360.pdf

Quote from: RavnMonster on August 18, 2008, 09:32:32 AM
Why should the Gov have the right to tell any adult that they can't kill themselves if they want to? As long as they arent hurting anyone else, have at it. The more laws you put in place to "save those who need saving" the more of your rights are taken away.

as long as you stay on private property you should own and ride anything you like

once you set tire on public roadways, it is different.

the flaming fireball you turn into doesn't stop when it comes to other folks.

I had a 250 for a long time before I upgraded and I know I gained a lot from that.  I don't see exactly what harm can come from a law that says requires one to have to have a certain amount of experience before one gets a bike that was intended for an experienced rider.  Then again if your not intelligent enough to realize that you should not get a liter bike as your first bike then maybe your death will contribute, in a necessary way, to the evolution of the species.  The average human IQ is dropping because we have no natural predators and our system is designed to preserve human life.  You know how I know that?   From a Korn music video baby!   

How did this go from an article attributing an increase in motorcycle deaths due to higher motorcycle usage because of high gas prices to a tiered-license system,  more big brother because of higher CC's, helmet laws +/- and insurance premiums concerns ?

But since this is a moto forum I'll play along.

1) F the tiered-license system, if you like it so much because it's great in Europe, move there.

2) I don't need more big brother telling me what to do.  Public or Private.  I pay taxes just like everyone else.

3) Helmet laws, yes! If your state does not have one and your are to much of an idiot not to where one, suffer the consequences.  VisceralReaction, sorry about your sis-n-law.

4) I pay for my insurance premiums, not you.  If you want to pay my insurance costs, let me know, maybe we can work something out and I'll go out an buy a 125cc.  Or maybe YOU should be a 125cc if premiums concern you that much.

Quote from: arai_speed on August 19, 2008, 01:44:31 AM
How did this go from an article attributing an increase in motorcycle deaths due to higher motorcycle usage because of high gas prices to a tiered-license system,  more big brother because of higher CC's, helmet laws +/- and insurance premiums concerns ?

But since this is a moto forum I'll play along.

1) F the tiered-license system, if you like it so much because it's great in Europe, move there.

2) I don't need more big brother telling me what to do.  Public or Private.  I pay taxes just like everyone else.

3) Helmet laws, yes! If your state does not have one and your are to much of an idiot not to where one, suffer the consequences.  VisceralReaction, sorry about your sis-n-law.

4) I pay for my insurance premiums, not you.  If you want to pay my insurance costs, let me know, maybe we can work something out and I'll go out an buy a 125cc.  Or maybe YOU should be a 125cc if premiums concern you that much.

Couldn't have said it better myself

Insurance companies put people into groups. When people in that group do bad things, everybody in the group suffers from higher insurance rates. Its why they ask you what kind of car/bike you have. People with performance cars have to pay more. People on bikes like ours, which generally get grouped into standard or sport bike groups, are affected by every kid that goes out and buys an R1 or R6 as their first bike and crashes it. Our individual rates are also affected by cruisers cause we're part of the general motorcycle group.

As wrong as it might be, thats how it works. Your actions ('your' being very general here, as in anybody with a motorcycle) affect others. Every time insurance companies get a hold of statistics like these, they're gonna equate it with danger and possible lost money so they're gonna raise our rates.

Thats just how it works. Ducatizzz gets it.

Quote from: arai_speed on August 19, 2008, 01:44:31 AM
How did this go from an article attributing an increase in motorcycle deaths due to higher motorcycle usage because of high gas prices to a tiered-license system,  more big brother because of higher CC's, helmet laws +/- and insurance premiums concerns ?

But since this is a moto forum I'll play along.

1) F the tiered-license system, if you like it so much because it's great in Europe, move there.  I mean why should we have something like that.  It's not like there isn't a tiered licensing system for a car, oh wait, there is its called a learners permit and you have to a responsible person ride with you while you drive a car for six months in most states.  Those commie fvcking bastards must have snuck that one in there on ya.

2) I don't need more big brother telling me what to do.  Public or Private.  I pay taxes just like everyone else.  Go ahead and take a gun in to the capital building or walk across the highway.  You pay your taxes you can do what ever you want.  OR the other people that pay for the same stuff want to use it with relative safety.

3) Helmet laws, yes! If your state does not have one and your are to much of an idiot not to where one, suffer the consequences.  VisceralReaction, sorry about your sis-n-law. I agree with you hear, no helmet is just stupid.

4) I pay for my insurance premiums, not you.  If you want to pay my insurance costs, let me know, maybe we can work something out and I'll go out an buy a 125cc.  Or maybe YOU should be a 125cc if premiums concern you that much.  See the post above, its fairly irresponsible to believe your actions don't affect everyone else in this regard.  A 125cc limit is a tad extreme for the American road system, I would say 250-500cc.  If you don't have fun on a 250 be a man and get off the straights.

The bright side is without this stuff in place there is some culling of the herd going on.  So there's always that.  It sucks that laws have to be made because some people are too stupid to handle themselves appropriately but that's life.  If the laws are made be thankful you're grand fathered in.  On the otherside, they won't be made because this country is full of whiney pregnant doges.

The only problem I have with a tier system is my lack of confidence in the government or any bureaucracy to properly distinguish risk compared to model.  I don't know about now, but for a while it cost more to insure a Monster 900 than the obviously faster 748.  Why? 750cc cut off.  I could just see it now, kids buzzing around on 250cc 2 stroke race bikes because they can not ride a 400 standard yet.

Quote from: howie on August 19, 2008, 06:59:14 AM
The only problem I have with a tier system is my lack of confidence in the government or any bureaucracy to properly distinguish risk compared to model.  I don't know about now, but for a while it cost more to insure a Monster 900 than the obviously faster 748.  Why? 750cc cut off.  I could just see it now, kids buzzing around on 250cc 2 stroke race bikes because they can not ride a 400 standard yet.

I completely agree with that Howie that is a serious issue.  Until there is an actual standard to classify motorcycles besides ccs this is going to be an issue.  We all see it already when it comes to insurance, my 695 was more to insure than my brothers CBR600RR and the CBR is clearly a much faster and more powerful motorcycle.  I would imagine something along the lines of a standard government dyno test might be needed to achieve this.

Question is though do you factor in just HP, just Torque or a combination of both?

Quote from: JBubble on August 19, 2008, 05:07:52 AM
Insurance companies put people into groups. When people in that group do bad things, everybody in the group suffers from higher insurance rates. Its why they ask you what kind of car/bike you have. People with performance cars have to pay more. People on bikes like ours, which generally get grouped into standard or sport bike groups, are affected by every kid that goes out and buys an R1 or R6 as their first bike and crashes it. Our individual rates are also affected by cruisers cause we're part of the general motorcycle group.

As wrong as it might be, thats how it works. Your actions ('your' being very general here, as in anybody with a motorcycle) affect others. Every time insurance companies get a hold of statistics like these, they're gonna equate it with danger and possible lost money so they're gonna raise our rates.

Thats just how it works. Ducatizzz gets it.

Maybe in your state.  In my state, my premiums are based on MY driving record, not on my neighbors or my uncles or on some kid with an R1, or some Yuppi on a Desmo.

If a rider flyes off a cliff tomorrow my premium stays the same, why?  Because MY driving record is still clear.