hello folks,

i was on unfamiliar roads yesterday having a blast. i discovered there are some amazing canyon roads in my backyard. only a 10-15 minute ride and i'm on some really fun and diverse canyon and vallley roads. i just moved to the santa clarita/canyon country area and not only am i only 25mi from Angeles Crest Hwy but i'm also only 15mins away from some nice twisties.

anyway...i was on unfamiliar roads yesterday and having a blast. in a few area's there was sand on a tight turn. it seemed like the sand was always right where my line was. i felt a slight slide only a couple of times when i was going a bit fast. it would scare the shit out of me for fear that i was going to slide off the road or something. one time i  was braking on the turn and on the sand and driftd onto the yellow line. i took my pace down a bit and i would take the next sandy turn real slow, maybe unneccesarily slow.

so what do you do when this happens?
can the bike take a tight turn fast by trying to lean my body more so the bike doesn't lean that much?
do i use both brakes at the same time?
if i'm already carrying a lot of speed, do i just try to keep my line and hope for the best?

any input would be really appreciated.

thanks

The most important thing to learn is to spot sand before you get to it so that you can adjust your speed.  I've gotten pretty good at that because most of the roads I like to ride have occasional spots of dirt, sand, or gravel.

Once identified, usually you'll have clean road in the two tire tracks that the cars have made.  Pick one or the other and stay in the tire track through the whole turn.  Again, this assumes that you've slowed down enough to be able to do that.

Finally, the more upright you can keep the bike, the better.  Leaning off of the side to keep the bike more vertical helps.  And don't make any sudden control inputs.  If you have to brake, balance the front and rear, just like you would do on a wet road.

With all that said, I've still had a few occasions to go wide in a right turn when I've suddenly encountered sand or gravel on the road.  Usually I make a conscious decision to go straight through the low traction stuff, because I can see that nobody is coming the other way.  And I always feel like I screwed up afterwards for not being able to take a proper line through the corner.  I think it's been at least two years since that happened, though.  It was often caused by not having a proper entrance angle to the corner.

As for carrying a lot of speed and hoping for the best, you might be hoping that it's only a mild lowside rather than a crash that does more damage to you and the bike.  I watched a friend go down in front of me when he didn't see sand on a right turn.  The front tire washed out and he was sliding on the road before he knew what had happened.  Luckily there was nobody coming the other way as he slid across the other lane and almost down a cliff.

Personally, I simply panic, though I haven't found that helps the situation much.

I think rule #1 is... especially where you are unfamiliar roads or your ability to corner, control your speed so that you can make second choices in your turns.  Leave track riding at the track. 

I usually encounter a road hazard every time we go out and do some serious riding.  If you need to change your line in a curve to avoid a road hazard, but you are so hot that it will put you over the center line... or high-side, then you are just plain going too fast into the turn.

I have hit a little sand where the back tire would skip out three or four inches.  This gives you a freaky feeling.  It will catch again if it hits pavement, but unless you have serious experience you will be in trouble real fast.  Unless you have a slipper clutch if you accidentally give it too much gas or jerk the throttle, you can put too much torque to the rear tire and cause it to spin in the turn.

As others have said, I try to look ahead for such hazards so that I can anticipate and avoid them.  However, if I do find myself on something like sand, or a bumpy bit of road, I try to relax, keep all my inputs neutral, and hope for the best.

Quote from: msincredible on May 11, 2008, 03:03:54 PM
As others have said, I try to look ahead for such hazards so that I can anticipate and avoid them.  However, if I do find myself on something like sand, or a bumpy bit of road, I try to relax, keep all my inputs neutral, and hope for the best.

+1, that's all you can really do....Also, if you feel the rear start to step out (ie: wheel broke loose and is spinning) you HAVE to remember to stay ON the gas....If you chop the throttle, you risk a high-side, and probably a very violent one!!   

Check out what happened to me just this weekend!!!    http://ducatimonsterworldwide.org/index.php?topic=100.0

+1 on what ScottRNelson posted

Quote from: hydra on May 11, 2008, 04:33:34 AM
1) one time i  was braking on the turn and on the sand and driftd onto the yellow line. i took my pace down a bit and i would take the next sandy turn real slow, maybe unneccesarily slow.

2) can the bike take a tight turn fast by trying to lean my body more so the bike doesn't lean that much?

3) if i'm already carrying a lot of speed, do i just try to keep my line and hope for the best?

1) Why are you trail braking on public roads?  Set your speed (i.e, be done w/ braking) then give it some gas.
2) Absolute.  The more you lean, the less the bike has to, the more traction pie you have
3) Do you have enought distance to sand to tighten up the turn?  If not then try to remember to not chop your throttle if&when the rear spins out. (not that I have the presense of mind myself to not panic chop)

hey everyone, thanks for all the solid input. i was definitely going a bit faster than i normally would on a new bike. i've owned 3 bmw's in the past 15 yrs and i just bought a Foggy (last week    with more HP than i've ever had on any of my beemer's. so i'll admit i was over anxious and a bit stupid. i was also not used to encountering that much sand before and it would catch me by surprise.

i went riding in the same area again yesterday and rode a lot more solid. the sandy area's were mostly in the tightest sections. BTW, i was riding in the area's of Lake Hughes and Green Valley which is just north of santa clarita and west of palmdale. there's some amazing riding in those canyon areas... [moto]

thanks again

no great changes of any kind; steering, braking, accelerating.  I think to myself, "just smoothly roll through it" and keep looking through the turn.  yeah avoid it if you can but shtuff happens and sometimes you find yourself in it.

We get a lot of those down here,what i do from my little experience is i roll off just a bit on the throttle to get the bike up a little bit and pray it won't slide,no sudden change in speed helps a lot.

Quote from: duc996 on May 13, 2008, 03:59:17 AM
We get a lot of those down here,what i do from my little experience is i roll off just a bit on the throttle to get the bike up a little bit and pray it won't slide,no sudden change in speed helps a lot.

I don't know if I agree w/the roll off the throttle part....By doing that, you're putting waaaaay more weight on the front (skinnier) wheel, which you need to turn through the loose debris, which is a higher risk to lowside....

By maintaining a greater amount of weight towards the back of the bike where is needs to be, you are less likely to have a slide-out IMHO.....

-duc996, If you meant "Keep the throttle steady rather than accelerate" then sure, but rollig off would introduce engine braking to the equation (greater risk of rear-skid), unweighting the back wheel (even GREATER risk of rear-skid) and throwing all your body's momentum towards the front wheel.....

-I'm not saying you're wrong, that's just my .02.....A lot of it depends on speed and throttle control (ability to reduce off-on lash) IMO....

I think the answer is as close to neutral throttle as possible, meaning the exact amount of throttle needed to maintain the same speed as lean angle changes.

Quote from: Johnster on May 13, 2008, 05:50:54 AM
I don't know if I agree w/the roll off the throttle part....By doing that, you're putting waaaaay more weight on the front (skinnier) wheel, which you need to turn through the loose debris, which is a higher risk to lowside....

By maintaining a greater amount of weight towards the back of the bike where is needs to be, you are less likely to have a slide-out IMHO.....

-duc996, If you meant "Keep the throttle steady rather than accelerate" then sure, but rollig off would introduce engine braking to the equation (greater risk of rear-skid), unweighting the back wheel (even GREATER risk of rear-skid) and throwing all your body's momentum towards the front wheel.....

-I'm not saying you're wrong, that's just my .02.....A lot of it depends on speed and throttle control (ability to reduce off-on lash) IMO....

Oh shoot,i'm giving this guy wrong info,i guess i've been getting lucky not dumping the bike  ya hold it steady,rolling off will put all the weight in the front that can cause a slide.Thanks for the correction Johnster 

Quote from: duc996 on May 13, 2008, 07:12:44 PM
Oh shoot,i'm giving this guy wrong info,i guess i've been getting lucky not dumping the bike  ya hold it steady,rolling off will put all the weight in the front that can cause a slide.Thanks for the correction Johnster 

Yeah I didn't want you to think I was disagreeing w/you  ....There's a BIG difference between lightly rolling off the gas and chopping the throttle suddenly....With the amount of engine braking that most Ducatis have (A LOT), chopping the throttle can be deadly if you're not careful!! 

I'm glad you corrected me on this one,don't want the fellow riders getting the wrong info thanks.