Quote from: mitt on October 07, 2008, 11:18:45 AM
Bevels were not unique to Ducati, but desmo is.
mitt

Mercedes used desmo before Ducati adopted it...

you know the more i look at this.. i think they were trying to appease the S4R owners and their complaints about the new 696-style.

more frame, SSS watercooled, more power, traditional exhausts under the bike. now remove that bikini fairing (a la 696) and you have an updated S4R. but guess what... it has an aluminum subframe.

Quote from: Triple J on October 07, 2008, 03:32:49 PM
The thing is the desmo system doesn't have any benefit for our relatively low revving 2V street bikes. Now if they removed it from their GP bikes I would be shocked and seriously disappointed as from most accounts it is allowing the GP bike to rev higher than any other GP bike. Our 2V street bike...not so much...it's just a tradition thing, like the dry clutch.

I have no idea if desmo has any real benefit in the 4V SBK motors...I suspect not though, but I'd be disappointed if they got rid of it in the SBKs since that's a direct connection to the racing program.

Actually, it's been said that Desmo allows the power band to be sculpted throughout the rev range. Any engine can make power by revving high, but a Desmo engine doesn't have to overcome the inertia of high strength valve springs at the lower end of the power band to make the power at the higher end. In short, less parasitic power loss. Same with the dry clutch.

So the advantage isn't just at the high end, it's the ability to tune the lower end while still allowing for high end power.

Quote from: superjohn on October 07, 2008, 06:44:46 PM
Actually, it's been said that Desmo allows the power band to be sculpted throughout the rev range. Any engine can make power by revving high, but a Desmo engine doesn't have to overcome the inertia of high strength valve springs at the lower end of the power band to make the power at the higher end. In short, less parasitic power loss. Same with the dry clutch.

So the advantage isn't just at the high end, it's the ability to tune the lower end while still allowing for high end power.

True, plus it has higher tolerences as a Desmodromic.  Plus, there is no valve spring slap at high rpm.

I personally love the dry clutch sound and ease of maintenance.  I also appreciate the fact that almost all of the high end Racing Superbikes has dry clutches.   Look at the RC212V, GSVR, etc.

Quote from: CDawg on October 07, 2008, 06:09:20 AM
I don't understand what the big brains at Ducati is thinking.

The top of the line Monster has always been a stripped down Superbike.  I don't understand the desire to rebrand a "new" line.  If I put on my cynical hat, the press release sounds like Ducati is ceding the naked bike category to the MV and Aprillas and instead trying to "create" a new category which is "naked superbike"...I mean come on, who care how the powerplant is cooled.

There's got to be more to this story behind Ducati's rationale that's not leaked yet...

That is a GIANT NEGATIVE.  The Monster has NEVER been a stripped down Superbike.  IF you wanted a TRUE "stripped down superbike," you should have purchased an S3 or Tuono.  The 4V Monster has always had a detuned superbike engine, with a frame based off the 851/888, and then the ST series.   She has been a bike based on style, performance, malleability, and versatility, not merely superbike focus.

This new Fighter 'might' be the first Monsteresque bike with a true detachable subframe.  I just hope they do not get away from Desmodromics or the dry clutch, even though the "rumor" is that the L Twin might be moved a little in the frame, so the horizontal cylinder is not so horizontal, but a little more vertical for packaging reasons.

As it has been said before, this is not FACT.  But that doesn't mean we cannot discuss it and our opinions.   

I'm surprised that picture on the magazine looks so much different than the photoshop job that was floating around a few weeks or months back.  That one had a much more agressive, stylized "MV Agusta Brutale"-like style.  However, this newer one just looks like a 1098 with a S4R exhaust and wheel.

Not to say that either of them would be undesirable, they're just both radically different takes on the new "Ducati Fighter" or "Hyperfighter" as I think the other one was called.

Personally, I think this newer picture on that magazine is a less likely style for them to actually pull off.  The reason I think that is that the shotgun side exhausts have sort of an old-school classic look to them, whereas a naked superbike "Fighter" makes me think of an aggressive, raw style.  That also seems to be where a lot of the naked "fighter" market has gone.

Just my $0.02 on it, it is always fun to speculate about new models before they come out

Quote from: superjohn on October 07, 2008, 06:44:46 PM
Actually, it's been said that Desmo allows the power band to be sculpted throughout the rev range. Any engine can make power by revving high, but a Desmo engine doesn't have to overcome the inertia of high strength valve springs at the lower end of the power band to make the power at the higher end. In short, less parasitic power loss. Same with the dry clutch.

So the advantage isn't just at the high end, it's the ability to tune the lower end while still allowing for high end power.

Maybe...but the parasitic power loss due to valve springs is minor I would guess. If it is such a great system everyone would use it, or a version of it. I don't know enough about engine design to argue details...but anyone can make a 2V air cooled motor which makes the same HP/Torque as my MTS1000...while using valve springs.

Quote from: Beyote on October 07, 2008, 07:18:59 PM
  Plus, there is no valve spring slap at high rpm.

A non-benefit on our low revving 2V engines. A nice bonus for the MotoGP bike though, like I said earlier.

Quote from: sbrguy on October 07, 2008, 11:01:37 AM
but is a ducati still a ducati if it no longer has the desmodromic system in it?

take out the desmodromic system, put in hydraulic or spring actuated valve train and its basicaly now no different than other italian makers like mvagusta, aprilia, or japanese brands like honda, kawa, suzuki.

the dry or wet clutch can go or stay though the dry is more the "ducati" thing, but take out the desmo and it no longer has any differnce than any other brand.

Ducati is Ducati. They make the most powerful V-Twin superbikes on the market. I personally don't care how they make that power, desmo or not. Desmo is different but it's actually more ancient than valve springs in some ways. Technology proved long ago that you can make enormous power with spring actuated valves. I would love it if I didn't have to change belts, adjust valves all the time, and not have that worry in the back of my mind that a belt could break and ruin my engine. I know, a bit overboard, but you get my point. 

I think that photo is definately a fake, there is now way they would create something that looks like an S4R after they have already launched the M696/1100.

Why would they be giving it a new name, calling it a Fighter and then create something that exactly like an older Monster.

The low maintenance is a hoax.
To keep it under warranty you have to bring it in after 12 month regardless of the mileage.
I did manage to put 8000 on it this summer...but thats far from 12000, which is the new interval.
Anyway it has to get its big service after the winter storage...
So...

i'd definately miss my desmo engine if it was gone....but i'm def gettin the 1198 when before residency

One must look at Ducati as a business. Yes it's a company, who happens to make V-Twin bikes. But their goal is to make money. If you look at the numbers sold throughout the lineage of Monsters I can guess that most of them were Air Cooled 2V's. I'd say the S4R and S4RS comprised much less sales than that of the M620/695, M750/800, M900/1000, S2R 800, S2R 1000's. So I understand why Ducati now wants to offer the Monster range with a middleweight (aka for newbs/girls) and a liter-sized variant. Now that said the Monster has evolved from a type of bike to a "style", an "image". The Monster has a cult like following (hence this site), and drones of old Monster owners will buy new versions of upcoming Monsters 2009-on and you can bet plenty of new riders will too. Now this "Fighter" segment seems to fit in the place of the S4RS. Why not create a new line to which you can market. Because now you can essentially make a 848 based "Fighter" as someone even wished for already in this thread. And the "Fighter" with the 1098 hasn't even been made. This is genius marketing on behalf of Ducati. Keep the Monster line and keep it true to the roots of 2V's, and create another bike to a new comsumer. The KTM 690 Duke looks damn aggressive and is sick, the Super Duke looks the shits too, as wil the new KTM Venom. The Brutale is sex on wheels. The Street Triple is selling like hot-cakes. Our Monsters (anything not the 696 doesn't look that aggresive nor modern). The SuperMoto and Enduro segment has blown up. As has the Street Fighter market. This is a good move for Ducati. As they now can have a street oriented bike in the Monster, a SM bike with the HyperMotard (which they can make a 848 based one of those things too and sell bikes), and a performance first naked with the "Figher" or "HyperFighter". Remember it needs to make dollars not sense. And about Valves and all that. If they can make parts cheaper, easier to maintain, and better performing bikes than like technology takes it's course. Granted some people who have a Monster S4R or S4RS will be most upset. Because they took that bike out of the line-up. So if you want a naked that has the tops in performance you won't own a "Monster" you won't be a "Monster" rider you'll be a "Fighter" rider see it is because the term Monster has evolved into more than a bike. It's sheer marketing gold this Fighter. Now that all said I think that pic on that cover is fake, and this Fighter better look the tits.

cg

cg

I'm so torn about this.  To me, Ducatis are twins with dry clutches and desmo valve actuation (I know that all are not like that.  I'm taking about the image in my head).  They sound like Ducatis.  They look like Ducatis.  I'm not sure how many of those factors you can take away until it ceases to be a Ducati.  I understand that technology marches on and that just hanging on tradition doesn't always make sense.  I mean, if they can produce a better, cheaper, more powerful engine with spring actuated valves, that's not a bad idea.  But at what cost?  What if it doesn't sound or feel or look like a Duc?!?  Then it's just a Japanese clone.  I'm just glad I've got a dry clutch desmo L-twin and don't have to compromise.

All I know for certain is that they need to get rid of the name "Fighter."  That's just f'n stupid.  Even if they want to differentiate it from the Monster line, get a new name. 

This bike looks about like I had expected..

I think this fighter is somewhat of a replacement for the Super Sport. And what was the super sport? IMHO it was a thing called a Sport Bike. Remember those? They were cool and fun bikes that you rode around on the street. They looked like a million bucks even if they cost less than 10 grand. But sales slowed because everyone had to go out and buy a "race bike." I guess it just wasn't good enough to have a bike that made around 100hp. You gotta have the latest and greatest. Now that "Race Bikes" make much more than 100 HP these days, a good sensible Hooligan/sportbike should make power that compares, but maybe isn't tuned for the track. you know a stripped down race bike...

The Interceptor is an example of a Sport Bike, Back in the 80's the Interceptor was the cats pajamas! Then it got replaced by the CBR as the thing to have, so the interceptor became a light Sport touring bike.
The Honda 919 is another example. I think it has a detuned 929 engine in it, no fairings, goes fast, looks kind of cool.
My old Ducati Knock off, the Ferrari Red, 998 Badged "Super Hawk" was a Sport Bike. With Middle shelf, adjustable Showa suspension, and a really sweet 4 Valve V Twin engine, a guy could really wear out some tires on that thing, and have fun doing it! Yea it had the normal spring  actuated valves run by a timing chain, but something deep inside the engine made some really cool whirring noises. Now I don't know about you, but I think that real cool noises on a motorcycle are very important.

Ducati can continue to make Motocycles that make cool and unique noises on future bikes, even if they change to timing chains, Pnumatic valves,  spring valves, Flux capacitors or whatever. If you like Desmo engines, hang on to what you have. Then you can be one of those Guys that has an old Desmo Ducati, and maybe even a dry clutch. I'm not planning on selling mine...

i hope this ISNT the replacement for the SS. as an S4R replacements it makes sense. but the SS needs to be resurrected with good price for a 696 engined bike. Then an 1100. use the monster frames even. just give us the sexy body work back on a sub-10k bike.