This was stolen from the bay area riders forum, but I think it's worthy of derbying.


One of the most common questions new sport bike riders have is, "What kind of bike should I get?" This question is asked so often that I created a standardized response. Please keep in mind that these are the views and opinions of one person (albeit countless other also hold them) With that said, on we go...

Getting ANY modern 600cc sport bike for a first ride is a bad idea (far, far, far worse is a 1000cc). In fact, it may be nothing more than an expensive form of suicide. Here are a few reasons why;

1. Knowledge of Subject Matter
When anyone starts something new they find themselves at the most basic point of the "beginner's mind". This is to say that they are at the very start of the learning curve. They are not even aware of what it is that they don't know. A personal example of this is when I began Shotokan Karate. The first day of class I had no idea what an "inside-block" was, let alone how to do it with correct form, power, and consistency. After some time, and a lot of practice, I could only then realize how bad my form really was. Then, and only then, was I able to begin the process of improving it. I had to become knowledgeable that inside-blocks even existed before I was aware that I could not do them correctly. I had to learn what the correct elements of inside-block were, before I realized that I did not have those elements. After I learned, I was then able to aspire towards the proper elements. This example is to illustrate the point that it takes knowledge OF something in order to understand how that something works, functions, performs, etc. Now lets return to the world of motorcycles. A beginner has NO motorcycle experience. They are not even aware of the power, mistakes, handling, shifting, turning dynamics etc. of any bike, let alone a high performance sport bike. Not only does the beginner lack the SKILL of how to ride a motorcycle, they also lack the knowledge of WHAT skills they need to learn. Acquiring those skills comes only with experience and learning from mistakes. As one moves through the learning curve they begin to amass new information...they also make mistakes. A ton of them.

2. The Learning Curve
While learning to do something, your first efforts are often sloppy and full of mistakes. Without mistakes the learning process is impossible. A mistake on a sport bike can be fatal. The things new riders need to learn above all else is smooth throttle control, proper speed, and how to lean going into turns. A 600cc bike can reach 60mph in about 3 to 5 seconds. A simple beginners mishap with that much power and torque can cost you your life (or a few limbs) before you even knew what happened. Grab a handful of throttle going into a turn and you may end up crossing that little yellow line on the road into on-coming traffic...**shudder**. Bikes that are more forgiving of mistakes are far safer (not to mention, more fun) to learn on.
Ask yourself this question; in which manner would you rather learn to walk on a circus high-wire (1) with a 4x4 board that is 2 feet off the ground (2) with a wire that is 20 feet off the ground? Most sensible people would choose (1). The reason why is obvious. Unfortunately safety concerns with a first motorcycle aren't as apparent as they are in the example above. However, the wrong choice of what equipment to learn on can be just as deadly, regardless of how safe, careful, and level-headed you intend to be.

3. "But I Will be Safe, Responsible, and Level-Headed While Learning".
Sorry, but this line of reasoning doesn't cut it. To be safe you also need SKILL (throttle control, speed, leaning, etc). Skill comes ONLY with experience. To gain experience you must ride in real traffic, with real cars, and real dangers. Before that experience is developed, you are best suited with a bike that won't severely punish you for minor mistakes. A cutting edge race bike is not one of these bikes.
Imagine someone saying, "I want to learn to juggle, but I'm going to start by learning with chainsaws. But don't worry. I intend to go slow, be careful, stay level-headed, and respect the power of the chainsaws while I'm learning". Like the high-wire example, the proper route here isn't hard to see. Be "careful" all you want, go as "slow" as you want, be as "cautious" as you want, be as "respectful" as you want...your still juggling chainsaws! The "level-headed" thing to do in this situation is NOT to start with chainsaws. Without a foundation in place of HOW to juggle there is only a small level of safety you can aspire towards. Plain and simple, it's just better to learn juggling with tennis balls than it with chainsaws. The same holds true for learning to ride a motorcycle. Start with a solid foundation in the basics, and then move up. Many people say that "maturity" will help you be safe with motorcycles. They are correct. However, maturity has NOTHING to do with learning to ride a motorcycle. Maturity is what you SHOULD use when deciding what kind of bike to buy so that you may learn to ride a motorcycle safely.

4. "I Don't Want a Bike I'll Outgrow"
Please. Did your Momma put you in size 9 shoes at age 2? Get with the program. It is far better to maximize the performance of a smaller motorcycle and get "bored" with it than it is to mess-up your really fast bike (not mention messing yourself up) and not being able to ride at all. Power is nothing without control.

5. "I Don't Want to Waste Money on a Bike I'll Only Have for a Short Period of Time" (i.e. cost)
Smaller, used bikes have and retain good resale value. This is because other sane people will want them as learner bikes. You'll prolly be able to sell a used learner bike for as much as you paid for it. If you can't afford to upgrade in a year or two, then you definitely can't afford to wreck the bike your dreaming about. At the very least, most new riders drop bikes going under 20MPH, when the bike is at its most unstable periods. If you drop your brand new bike, fresh off the showroom floor, while your learning (and you will), you've just broken a directional, perhaps a brake or clutch lever, cracked / scrapped the fairings ($300.00 each to replace), messed-up the engine casing, messed-up the bar ends, etc. It's better and cheaper to drop a used bike that you don't care about than one you just spent $8,500 on. Fortunately, most of these types of accidents do not result in serious physical injury. It's usually just a big dent in your pride and...

6. EGO.
Worried about looking like chump on a smaller bike? Well, your gonna look like the biggest idiot ever on your brand new, but messed-up bike after you've dropped it a few times. You'll also look really dumb with a badass race bike that you stall 15 times at a red light before you can get into gear. Or even better, how about a nice R6 that you can't ride more than 15mph around a turn because you don't know how to counter-steer correctly? Yeah, your gonna be really cool with that bike, huh? Any real rider would give you props for going about learning to ride the *correct* way (i.e. on a learner bike). If you're stressed about impressing someone with a "cool" bike, or embarrassed about being on smaller bike, then your not "mature enough" to handle the responsibility of ANY motorcycle. Try a bicycle. After you've grow-up ("matured"), revisit the idea of something with an engine.

7. "Don't Ask for Advice if You Don't Want to Hear a Real Answer".
A common pattern:

1. Newbie asks for advice on a 1st bike (Newbie wants to hear certain answers)
2. Experienced riders advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (this is not what Newbie wanted to hear).
3. Newbie says and thinks, "Others mess up while learning, but that wont happen to me" (as if Newbie is invincible, holds superpowers, never makes mistakes, has a "level head", or has a skill set that exceeds the majority of the world, etc).
4. Experienced riders explain why a "level head" isn't enough. You also need SKILL, which can ONLY be gained via experience. (Newbie thinks he has innate motorcycle skills)
5. Newbie makes up excuses as to why he is "mature" enough to handle a 600cc bike". (skill drives motorcycles, not maturity)
6. Newbie, with no knowledge about motorcycles, totally disregards all the advice he asked for in the first place. (which brings us right back to the VERY FIRST point I made about "knowledge of subject matter").
7. Newbie goes out and buys a R6, CBR, GSX, 6R, etc. Newbie is scared of the power. Being scared of your bike is the LAST thing you want. Newbie gets turned-off to motorcycles, because of fear, and never gets to really experience all the fun that they can really be. Or worse, Newbie gets in a serious accident.
8. The truth of the matter is that Newbie was actually never really looking for serious advice. What he really wanted was validation and / or approval of a choice he was about to make or already had made. When he received real advice instead of validation he became defensive about his ability to handle a modern sport bike as first ride (thus defending the choice he had made). Validation of a poor decision isn't going to replace scratched bodywork on your bike. It isn't going put broken bones back together. It isn't going graft shredded skin back onto your body. It isn't going to teach you to ride a motorcycle the correct way. However, solid advice from experienced riders, when heeded, can help to avoid some of these issues.

I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm being real. Look all over the net. You'll see veteran after veteran telling new riders NOT to get a 600cc bike for a first ride. You'll even see pros saying to start small. Why? Because we hate new riders? Because we don't want others to have cool bikes? Because we want to smash your dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. The more riders the better (assuming there not squids)! The reason people like me and countless others spend so much time trying to dissuade new riders from 600cc bikes is because we actually care about you. We don't want to see people get hurt. We don't want to see more people die in senseless accidents that could have been totally avoided with a little logic and patients. We want the "sport" to grow in a safe, healthy, and sane way. We want you to be around to ride that R6, CBR600RR, GSX-1000, Habayasu, etc that you desire so badly. However, we just want you to be able to ride it in a safe manner that isn't going to be a threat to yourself or others. A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying "600cc bike are OK to start with". Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders* themselves. If you follow their advice you've entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don't listen. *(I consider anyone with under 30,000 miles a noobie)

I have a friend of mine out by San Jose who sought my advise on a first time motorcycle purchase. I echoed many of these points and then suggest a nice new SV650 with ABS.

Three months later, she buys a CBR600. It seems that no matter how much good advice you dish out, when the sales schmuck pushes the $10K sportbike over the $7K starter bike saying how it's just as easy and you'll "grow out of that one in a year"  the buyer relents and goes for the race replica.

I now worry. A lot.

That was a long post, but definitely worth reading.  As a noob myself, I am always working on the little things like being smooth on and off the throttle, slowing down BEFORE the turn, and just taking it slow.  It is easy to get carried away just on my M900, and I can't imagine how quickly an R6 could get me in trouble.

Good post

1+ 

... we all should remind ourselves who and when we are giving advice to ....

I dunno.  My first bike was a '95 CBR600.  I never had a problem on it.  I did have years of dirtbike experience prior, but that hardly prepares you for riding a street bike.  However, I knew that I had to be careful and progress at my own pace.  I rode that bike for a couple years, sold it for the price I paid for it and then bought a Monster the next year.

Idiots will hurt themselves on any bike.  I've seen guys on 250s do really stupid shit too.

I think it just happens to be that the people who generally would pick a modern 600 are usually the kind of people who don't have the kind of restraint necessary.  Are there better bikes to learn on than a '08 R6?  Of course.

To me, the whole debate is like the motorcycle equivalent to gun control.  Do riders kill themselves or do R6s kill riders?  Dumb people do dumb things.  No matter what they drive/ride/shoot/etc.

On a side note:  I've ridden with people who have been "riding for years" who still don't know WTF they're doing.  Some people are just never going to be comfortable on a motorcycle and those people, even with their years of experience, are every bit as dangerous as Joe Military on his brand new CBR.

that's what gets me. the whole 'you'll grow out of it' or 'you'll get bored with it'
to me you never stop learning, and seeing that i know my bike can easily do triple digits, i dont think i'll grow out of it. boring... that all depends on the roads you ride...

i agree with the original poster opinion but unfortunately its useless.

like you mentioned you will always have an experienced rider say, " i started with a 1200 ninja i'm fine" to any newbie.

it really doens't matter what anyone thinks.  like you mentioned in your posting a person that asks "what should i get" usually has their mind made up already, they are just looking for justification be it a 250 or a 1400 busa.

i say let poeple figure it out on their own.  most people are hardheaded to begin with, and really don't want advice.

if they want to risk starting on a 200hp d16 and can afford it as their first experience with motocycles so be it, so long as they only hurt and kill themselves that is OK.  if they want to try to start on a 15-30hp bike as a first bike or scooter, so be it, again its their lives they are considering first and foremost and again as long as they only hurt and kill themselves that is OK.

Quote from: darylbowden on October 10, 2008, 10:26:33 PM
I dunno.  My first bike was a '95 CBR600.  I never had a problem on it.  I did have years of dirtbike experience prior, but that hardly prepares you for riding a street bike.  However, I knew that I had to be careful and progress at my own pace.  I rode that bike for a couple years, sold it for the price I paid for it and then bought a Monster the next year.

Idiots will hurt themselves on any bike.  I've seen guys on 250s do really stupid shit too.

I think it just happens to be that the people who generally would pick a modern 600 are usually the kind of people who don't have the kind of restraint necessary.  Are there better bikes to learn on than a '08 R6?  Of course.

To me, the whole debate is like the motorcycle equivalent to gun control.  Do riders kill themselves or do R6s kill riders?  Dumb people do dumb things.  No matter what they drive/ride/shoot/etc.

On a side note:  I've ridden with people who have been "riding for years" who still don't know WTF they're doing.  Some people are just never going to be comfortable on a motorcycle and those people, even with their years of experience, are every bit as dangerous as Joe Military on his brand new CBR.

Daryl --- with all due respect, seriously, I agree with everything you said except for the dirt bike experience part.  I believe that the years of dirt biking influenced and helped you far more than you may be giving it credit for. I dunno for sure about your personal experience  but everyone that I personally know, along with myself, believes that the dirt bike added lots to the whole riding thing.

Whenever I get anyone ask me, I always suggest get a basic 250 dirt bike, road/trailbike. (not some highly strung 2 stroke screamer)

I started off on a Kawasaki KLR250
* Simple reliable bike with a limited amount of power.

* Easy to handle on road with a bit of limited off road use, A good all rounder, that won't bend or break easily if ridden over a gutter/Traffic Island or dropped.

* Tough if you drop it or take a tumble (Dropped mine 4 times will no ill effects)

* When riding on dirt you learn to feel what happens when you slide the front/rear around on the dirt, I strongly feel spending 18 months riding around on dirt tracks was the best experience I could ever have picked up, Now if the S2R moves/slides around under braking or acceleration It doesn't freak me out, Those skills I learnt on dirt have saved me a number of times. (within reason of course, I'm no Casey Stoner or Colin Edwards)

*Easy resale, Legally here in Northern Australia for the first year you can only have a 250 anyway, even with a few marks and scratches a 250 road/trail bike will sell very quickly and easily.

* Learn to ride with limited power, I found you learn to think ahead, you can't rely on the power to get you out of trouble, you learn to watch your surroundings and other drivers, plan ahead for overtaking opportunities or potential danger

* Cheap to maintain and repair, If you break something, most times it's pretty cheap to fix, and dirt riding can be hard on equipment (read expensive) if you don't choose to maintain it, so I find most dirt riders learn very quickly how to do the simple things like cleaning/lubing the chain, cleaning and inspection of there ride.

It may not be suitable for everyone/location, but up here in my part of the world it works pretty well. 

i wish Aprilia would sell the RS 125 in the states.
and i wish states would require under 21 riders to be LESS than 600 cc
same with cars,
europe has the graduated license for cars and bikes.
it works.

so my suggestion should i become a politician is
<16 <125 cc for bikes and no car
<18 <250 cc for bikes and <2.0l for cars
<21 <600cc for bikes and <3.0l for cars
>21 unlimited

now i know there are exceptions. there are I4 small displacement turbos that can scream... but people will get the point.
there will be less kids crashing 300hp mustangs or wrapping themselves around a tree with an R6

I agree that is a good general rule of thumb.  However, I had no riding experience and bought a 695 as my first bike.  I've been riding for three summers and have 24k miles.  I am absolutely thrilled with the 695 as a first bike, and in fact I'll probably keep this bike in my stable for the rest of my life. 

I also have a friend who bought a triumph scramber (800cc +) for his first bike and has loved it.  I think displacement isn't a good measure to go buy.

I agree with a lot of the things on this thread, especially since I am a newbie. Yes, my first street bike is a 696. Yes, it has a ton of power and yes, I could have gotten a smaller bike to hone my riding skills. If I had listened to my Harley riding brother, I would be on a SR4, but also knew that it would be too much power. Could I have gone even smaller, gotten something used, of course. I probably made the classic immature "newbie" mistake. However...

I spent years of dirt riding which ABSOLUTELY gave me an advantage over a first time rider. Bombing the woods of New England in my youth taught me basic riding controls, the whole concept of foot/clutch/hands/head/body coordination, and most importantly, low speed control (considering you are never fully going flat out in the woods and doing a LOT of body shifting and clutch control). What dirt DIDN'T teach me, was how to deal with all the idiots in cars, not paying attention, talking on the cell phone, pulling out into traffic without looking, cutting each other off, blowing stop signs, not signaling or...you get the picture. And can you tell I live in MA? Those things I had to learn, regardless of the type or size of motorcycle I am riding.

Anyway, yes, a smaller bike will help the learning curve. But at least for me, the learning curve was short. The other thing outside of SKILL, is confidence. And that will come over time, regardless of the bike you own. And yes, if you are on a smaller bike, confidence might come quicker as your skill improves. But that's up to the individual and everyone is different. But for ME, I like the extra power, especially when I need to get the hell out of the way on the highway. I like to pass people quickly and limit the amount of time spent in people's blind spot. And the power thing leads me to my next comment about maturity.

Making a mature decision not only goes into the kind of bike you SHOULD get or would LIKE to get, but it comes into play when you use the bike, above all else. The most mature decision ANY rider can make is when you pull back on that throttle and how far. A mature rider will know their limitations and work on improving and overcoming those. If you can't lean into the corners yet, go find a parking lot and PRACTICE it. Even experienced riders should take an afternoon and practice basic riding techniques that will save your life. How many people on this forum still practice stopping short? I bet not many.

Bottom line is, get a bike YOU are comfortable with. Know YOUR limitations. Make a mature decision based on a lot of time and research. Know YOUR limitations (yes, I said it again). Don't worry about what others think, since other people aren't in control of your life and a bike is a life and death situation. And PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

Ride safe everyone...and watch out for the idiots in cars.

maturity is one of the reasons i advocate the age/cc limit.

Quote from: mac900 on October 11, 2008, 01:41:54 AM
Daryl --- with all due respect, seriously, I agree with everything you said except for the dirt bike experience part.  I believe that the years of dirt biking influenced and helped you far more than you may be giving it credit for. I dunno for sure about your personal experience  but everyone that I personally know, along with myself, believes that the dirt bike added lots to the whole riding thing.

I think it definitely helped, I guess I shouldn't given it more credit.  My point in downplaying it was that a ton of people tend to equate dirtbike experience with streetbike experience and while there are many similarities, there are enough differences that it certainly cannot be considered a substitute for street exp, maybe just an augmenter.