was cornerworking at a track school last weekend.  i had to sit there and watch 2 1098s and a 999 circle the track that all desperately, visibly needed suspension help.  i expected each one to go down each time they came by.  MANY totally unnecessary close calls.

this has been the subject of several comically combative posts here re folks who think they can do this themselves.  suspension dialing is a science.  if you aren't that scientist.. as in, this is not already what you do for a living.. pay the $40-$70 for someone who knows what they're doing.

these poor guys were fighting their bikes all weekend.  it made me cringe.

So in your opinion, simply setting the correct sag for you weight is something that should be done by a qualified tech? And not a group of buddies on a saturday morning?

Quote from: arai_speed on October 15, 2008, 11:14:23 AM
So in your opinion, simply setting the correct sag for you weight is something that should be done by a qualified tech? And not a group of buddies on a saturday morning?

Well, there's much more to it than just setting sag as you well know.  Sag is easy, from there it gets much tougher.

From my point of view, making a blanket statement  that suspension set up is a mystical science that should be not touched is a bad.  Suspension dialing includes setting the correct sag and that alone should provide a huge improvement for most riding conditions.

Beyond sag setup I would agree that it becomes much more involved, but if after the sag setup the bike still runs like crap, it's probably  due more  to a limitation of the internals components (springs for example) rather then further magical tuning.

My 2 cents.

Quote from: gm2 on October 15, 2008, 10:14:54 AM
was cornerworking at a track school last weekend.  i had to sit there and watch 2 1098s and a 999 circle the track that all desperately, visibly needed suspension help.  i expected each one to go down each time they came by. 

Interesting.  What could you see?

Quote from: arai_speed on October 15, 2008, 11:37:42 AM
From my point of view, making a blanket statement  that suspension set up is a mystical science that should be not touched is a bad.  Suspension dialing includes setting the correct sag and that alone should provide a huge improvement for most riding conditions.

yep, it'll help a lot.  but setting up a suspension completely, not just sag, is what i posted about.  there are many other adjustments to be made.  maybe that'll involve re-springing or re-valve'ing.  maybe it won't.  knowing all the variables there and being able to make the right recommendation is a science.

besides, what, you're arguing the wisdom of spending <$100 (if there are no new parts) to make the bike infinitely more rideable?  seriously?

and this isn't about most riding conditions.  it's deliberately on the Trackdays board.

Quote from: arai_speed on October 15, 2008, 11:37:42 AM
Beyond sag setup I would agree that it becomes much more involved, but if after the sag setup the bike still runs like crap, it's probably  due more  to a limitation of the internals components (springs for example) rather then further magical tuning.

that possibly true but not probably true.

Quote from: Spidey on October 15, 2008, 11:42:43 AM
Interesting.  What could you see?

the 999 forks would just about bottom out on light braking.  then the rebound was slow and sloppy.  he looked like he was about to lose the front each time.  rear end looked too stiff for him.  this was a small, skinny guy.

both the 1098s were ridden by considerably larger people.  bikes sat way too low in the back and also dove in the front.  they both wanted to run wide, did several times.  twitchy and mushy.

Quote from: arai_speed on October 15, 2008, 11:14:23 AM
So in your opinion, simply setting the correct sag for you weight is something that should be done by a qualified tech? And not a group of buddies on a saturday morning?

It depends on what results you want to get, and how you plan to ride the bike. There is no real correct answer, but maybe I can help put it into practical terms.

For most people, setting the sag with "buddies in the garage" will work just fine. Most riders won't know much of a difference when just doing average street riding. They will feel some changes and can make small adjustments from there to fit their own comfort. That is for street.
if one plans to ride track, then the answer most of the time to your question would be to have someone with knowledge help set it up. Track settings are different than street settings. You are asking your suspension to do something completely different so you need to adjust it for the job required. If you don't, you may very well be one of the examples mentioned above.
I know several very experienced racers who don't set up their own suspension. They just leave it to the people who know what they are doing. And I'm talking about championship winning racers.

So, it depends on what you want to get out of it. If you are just setting your bike up better for the street, then sure...no biggie really. But, if you are looking for performance tuning of your suspension and are putting your hide (and those around you), at risk then it's best to check your ego, open your wallet a little bit and go see the experts.

Quote from: arai_speed on October 15, 2008, 11:37:42 AM
From my point of view, making a blanket statement  that suspension set up is a mystical science that should be not touched is a bad.  Suspension dialing includes setting the correct sag and that alone should provide a huge improvement for most riding conditions.

Beyond sag setup I would agree that it becomes much more involved, but if after the sag setup the bike still runs like crap, it's probably  due more  to a limitation of the internals components (springs for example) rather then further magical tuning.

My 2 cents.

I was typing for a while so a lot of comments were made....In response to this comment, sag settings are different for track than street. So no, just setting sag then hoping it applies to every situation is wrong.

Quote from: gm2 on October 15, 2008, 11:54:04 AM
the 999 forks would just about bottom out on light braking.  then the rebound was slow and sloppy.  he looked like he was about to lose the front each time.  rear end looked too stiff for him.  this was a small, skinny guy.

both the 1098s were ridden by considerably larger people.  bikes sat way too low in the back and also dove in the front.  they both wanted to run wide, did several times.  twitchy and mushy.

What you've just described sounds like it can be remedied by simply setting the correct sag.  The latter example, with the large people, could exceed the desired sag settings with stock springs as stated in my other post..which is "possibly true but not probably true" 

Quote from: arai_speed on October 15, 2008, 11:37:42 AM
From my point of view, making a blanket statement  that suspension set up is a mystical science that should be not touched is a bad.  Suspension dialing includes setting the correct sag and that alone should provide a huge improvement for most riding conditions.

Beyond sag setup I would agree that it becomes much more involved, but if after the sag setup the bike still runs like crap, it's probably  due more  to a limitation of the internals components (springs for example) rather then further magical tuning.

My 2 cents.

if you really want to get nit-picky, you can't really set "truly proper" sag unless the bike is sprung properly. that means static AND rider sag. w/o proper springs, you won't get both.

Quote from: arai_speed on October 15, 2008, 12:36:24 PM
What you've just described sounds like it can be remedied by simply setting the correct sag.  The latter example, with the large people, could exceed the desired sag settings with stock springs as stated in my other post..which is "possibly true but not probably true" 

there's an entire industry of race suspension experts out there that need your help in that case.

Suspension set up is easy.  You don't need a pro.  Just click the 'lil knobby things to the right.  If you almost crash, click 'em back to a left.  Then take a hammer to your rear shock.  Turn some more knobby things.  Turn 'em at the top, at the bottom and anywhere else you can find little knobbies.  Then measure the height of your bike.  Jump up and down on the tank and seat.   You're done.   

Quote from: Spidey on October 15, 2008, 01:08:08 PM
Suspension set up is easy.  You don't need a pro.  Just click the 'lil knobby things to the right.  If you almost crash, click 'em back to a left.  Then take a hammer to your rear shock.  Turn some more knobby things.  Turn 'em at the top, at the bottom and anywhere else you can find little knobbies.  Then measure the height of your bike.  Jump up and down on the tank and seat.   You're done.   

Don't forget boiling the springs makes them stiffer. Oh and over fill your forks with oil it helps the damping.