Quote from: Super T.I.B on October 20, 2008, 05:07:06 PM
That's the thing, that doesn't happen here. Well, to my knowledge. 

many bike salesman remind me of the mortgage industry.

they will sell you the biggest one they can get you financed for

Wasnt there a story of a ude selling a busa to osomeone and he goes of to crash the bike? his friend comes to the dealer and yells at the dealer?

Quote from: superjohn on October 20, 2008, 06:31:46 PM
If only we could get graduated automobile licenses. Base license gets you into a small sedan. More training can you into more powerful vehicles and specialized training for big trucks and SUV's. Business' reliant on specialized vehicles would get a number of vouchers to train employees.

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I'd just like to get some kind of general knowledge test to go with that. There are too many idiot mouthbreather cagers out there. I was in my car today (had to carry a lot of stuff) and almost got taken out by two different old men who pulled out right in front of me. One crossed a lane of traffic to cut me off as he turned right on red (into the wrong lane that had no obstructions in it). 

Quote from: He Man on October 20, 2008, 03:00:08 PM

My point is, you cant stop stupid people from being stupid,

No, but starting on a starter bike, is, IMO, a part of proper rider education-I don't think it's a stupidity prevention.

Quote from: somebastid on October 20, 2008, 08:33:32 PM
No, but starting on a starter bike, is, IMO, a part of proper rider education-I don't think it's a stupidity prevention.

And you can still easily kill yourself on a starter bike. 

You still need edukashun.

Quote from: Super T.I.B on October 20, 2008, 08:37:10 PM
And you can still easily kill yourself on a starter bike. 

You still need edukashun.

Mebbe something more than 8 hours in a parking lot at 5 MPH. 

Quote from: somebastid on October 20, 2008, 08:57:43 PM
Mebbe something more than 8 hours in a parking lot at 5 MPH. 

Yep. Maybe have to do MSF or whatever you do over there before even getting a bike.

I know of people who have even tried doing the licencing courses over here, being all confident thinking they are Rossi, getting shit scared when they first try and ride a bike and leaving.

Come to think of it, there was someone on TOB who had a 620 and was selling it because he was scared of it.  Can't remember his name. 

Quote from: Super T.I.B on October 20, 2008, 09:25:20 PM

Come to think of it, there was someone on TOB who had a 620 and was selling it because he was scared of it.  Can't remember his name. 

Mebbe it was a cagiva one.

Graduated licenses for cars is a stupid idea, the biggest problem people have when driving cars is being inattentive, inconsiderate & lazy. It doesn't matter how much power they have, they're still going to be shitty drivers.

Graduated licenses for bikes is a good idea because bikes are inherently unstable. Learning to ride something with less power is a lot safer. Lighter, less powerful bikes make for a learning environment where a noob can concentrate on the important stuff like not being killed by the 16 y/o asshat in the $400 rust box car who's talking on their cell. Yes, you can still get messed up on a lower power bike but don't try to tell me that that's a valid reason for not having graduated licenses because it's total BS. We should have graduated license *AND* be required to take the MSF BRC. Yes, I would do it over again if I had to.

I understand the desire for equity here but it's just not really founded in reality. Bikes *are* more dangerous.

Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 06:38:27 AM
Graduated licenses for cars is a stupid idea, the biggest problem people have when driving cars is being inattentive, inconsiderate & lazy. It doesn't matter how much power they have, they're still going to be shitty drivers.

Graduated licenses for bikes is a good idea because bikes are inherently unstable. Learning to ride something with less power is a lot safer. Lighter, less powerful bikes make for a learning environment where a noob can concentrate on the important stuff like not being killed by the 16 y/o asshat in the $400 rust box car who's talking on their cell. Yes, you can still get messed up on a lower power bike but don't try to tell me that that's a valid reason for not having graduated licenses because it's total BS. We should have graduated license *AND* be required to take the MSF BRC. Yes, I would do it over again if I had to.

I understand the desire for equity here but it's just not really founded in reality. Bikes *are* more dangerous.

+1

Says it all right there.

Today it's cc limits for new riders. Tomorrow it's flashing headlights, and orange safety vests. Then maybe a 'kick me' sign on the back of his safety vest?

I guess I am more in the camp of personal responsibility. If a dummy wants to buy a Ninja and loop it at 70mph when riding home from the dealership, then more power to him (no pun intended, but accepted just the same). I do like responsibility for the sake of the safety of innocent bystanders. But who is to say that same dummy wouldn't just buy a 125cc bike, and try and rev the engine, pop the clutch, and try and get the wheel up with lots of body english?

What about a young rider that has been riding and racing in the dirt for many years. He (or she) then turns 16 and is more than capable of handling the responsibility and skill necessary to ride a larger cc machine?

Government regulation = bad
Personal responsibility = good

Quote from: MTBryan on October 21, 2008, 08:41:33 AM
Today it's cc limits for new riders. Tomorrow it's flashing headlights, and orange safety vests. Then maybe a 'kick me' sign on the back of his safety vest?

I guess I am more in the camp of personal responsibility. If a dummy wants to buy a Ninja and loop it at 70mph when riding home from the dealership, then more power to him (no pun intended, but accepted just the same). I do like responsibility for the sake of the safety of innocent bystanders. But who is to say that same dummy wouldn't just buy a 125cc bike, and try and rev the engine, pop the clutch, and try and get the wheel up with lots of body english?

What about a young rider that has been riding and racing in the dirt for many years. He (or she) then turns 16 and is more than capable of handling the responsibility and skill necessary to ride a larger cc machine?

Government regulation = bad
Personal responsibility = good

+1

Evilsteve brings up many many good points. But it is just what  MTBryan is saying. One day this, the next day that. The number one reason people get into shit is becasue they arent paying attention, and its easier to not pay attention in a car then riding a bike. I dont beleive in a graduated licencing system. Perhpas a CC licening system, similar to cars and weight. If you want to drive a truck you need to get a special license, if you wanna drive a big rig, you need to get that type of license.

Maybe you could get away with a sportbike class license, cruiser bike class license, and standard bikes. So if you pass it you can get whatever bike you wanna get. You could get the standard bike license and take the sportbike class (similar to Lee Parks ARC, or maybe a track day oriented at street skills, or something)in a few months when you are comfortable with your skill level.

That is no different from what I've been saying. Whether it's a particular class of motorcycle or a power/weight or CC based, they're all a different kind of graduated licensing system. Graduated in that case may not be the appropriate word of course but they all seek to obtain the same result. We're going to keep insufficiently trained people off bikes they can't handle. The dependency with a class based license is that the training & testing is sufficient and appropriate. Do we have any faith that the gub'ment would be able to achieve this? I don't. Power/weight based system is at least a little objective. How long you're on a smaller license could be controlled by passing tests or whatever and we're then dependent on DOT/NTSB people to come up with a viable system of course but that's where the MSF comes in. You're on a .5/1 (let's say) power to weight until you pass the MSF, then you can go to .75/1 and then pass the ARC or Lee Parks (or whatever) and you're open. There'd need to be weight limits otherwise just about every HD ever made would be in the learner category which of course is stupid. Of course, given that they're all limiting in some way, these same issues apply in all cases (class, power/weight, cc). I don't really mind which, anything is better than noobs on busas IMO.

As for personal responsibility, I completely agree. Personal responsibility is something that is sorely lacking and should be encouraged. I'm a skydiver, I know about personal responsibility. What most of the personal responsibility arguments neglect to mention however is that the affects of ineffective licensing flows on to everyone else in the form of insurance costs, ridiculous laws and an overall perception in the wider community that motorcyclists are basically crazy. This perception affects us all and just saying "personal responsibility" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface because so many people actively avoid personal responsibility and that affects us all. Many of these people would still attempt to avoid it but then it would become very easy to distinguish between those people and the people who are doing the right thing and getting appropriately licensed. Not to say that would be the end of it but inaction doesn't do anything for us either.

For the record, the AMA agrees, the status quo is the way as far as they're concerned.

Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 10:00:10 AM
<snip>

As for personal responsibility, I completely agree. Personal responsibility is something that is sorely lacking and should be encouraged. I'm a skydiver, I know about personal responsibility. What most of the personal responsibility arguments neglect to mention however is that the affects of ineffective licensing flows on to everyone else in the form of insurance costs, ridiculous laws and an overall perception in the wider community that motorcyclists are basically crazy. This perception affects us all and just saying "personal responsibility" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface because so many people actively avoid personal responsibility and that affects us all. Many of these people would still attempt to avoid it but then it would become very easy to distinguish between those people and the people who are doing the right thing and getting appropriately licensed. Not to say that would be the end of it but inaction doesn't do anything for us either.

<snip>

Ding ding ding!!!

These idiots who don't take personal responsibility affect the rest of us, specifically with insurance costs and perception of the general public.

Steve, you hit the nail on the head.

Quote from: herm on October 20, 2008, 05:00:45 PM
this is what i was thinking as well. buy whatever floats your boat, but dont expect to ride it. dont expect the DMV to give you a license to kill right away.

maybe this would stop some dealers from selling 'busas to novice riders with more $$ than brains

Didn't you mean to say shit for brains