mookie,

yeah, that was the incident I was referring to at Perkins.   Sergio (a neighbor of ours) dumped his pretty TL1000 and broke off a piece of the clutch lever, no biggie, there was still enough to do something with if we have a pair of pliers.. but more importantly the reservoir broke...  so Terry somehow hopped on his bike and rode it home from Perkins without a clutch.   


GC & Cru,

I think the best things you did to improve your riding abilities was that you never stopped riding during the winter.  I think this is what puts you guys way ahead of the normal learning curve in improving  riding skills.   This plays on top of the years of aggressive bicycle riding experience and talent!  (something you guys also have in common with Terry)
I don't know if you guys remember my friend Alicia that came to the NYMMC post-diner ride.  She was riding her new 2008 SV650.  She only started riding later last summer, she learned on a piece of shit late 90's Honda Shadow, she rode that piece of shit all winter though!  And then after riding during this past spring realized she wanted something sportier and with more power.  She rode a few monsters, and my SV650 (which I keep street legal).  She was leaning towards the SV before she rode it, and after riding mine the deal was cinched, after a deal for me to get a ninja zx-6r fell though, she was going to buy mine, she ended up buying a brand new one instead.  What's my point... my birthday is coming up next month and I'm now officially old... I get off-topic easily....  my point is, she rode all winter long in the city, and she was able to keep up with us on that ride.  And I owe it to her riding during the winter, her skills have improved dramatically from last season.  regardless... I'm a baby... so I'm not riding during the winter, that's what my car is for

Quote from: IndustrialGrrrl on October 20, 2008, 03:47:58 PM
I'm just "guesstimating" here, but I can feel pretty certain to bet that you two have improved your riding abilities light-years ahead of what you guys where doing last spring.  If I'm wrong, tell me....

Quote from: R.J. on October 20, 2008, 04:22:35 PM
GC, you guys ride at a fairly quick pace and just feel newer people that show up are not prepared or don't expect it.

QuoteYou shouldn't feel responsible for people crashing as it's they're own choice on whether or not to push harder. Your "just cruising around the turns" 70% could be someone elses "Oh my god get me off this thing" 130%.

IG, RJ, great posts I'm once again thankful for the insight. As some of the other Suspects and I sat down to a tasty meal tonight we discussed this very matter. While we all agreed that the pace up front has gotten faster this past year, I still hold on to the notion that it has only gotten a small percentage faster.

Meanwhile, while all this riding is going on, I've had several discussions with Cru about the pace we tend to ride and we both agree that it's too fast for the street so earlier this year I made a conscious effort to slow down the pace of the ride. So far this year while riding at the front and setting the pace, I can honestly say that on these Sunday group rides I feel like I'm always holding back, always riding at a casual pace, and always taking my time. So much so that I can allow my mind to wander and I can get into my own head and spend some quality time with myself. A lot of the time, most of my concentration is taken up by the music that going on in my earbuds. Not the smartest thing to do when riding but like I said, I above, I feel like the Sunday rides are a stroll in the park.
In a previous post I mentioned that everyone's riding ability and maybe even more importantly, everyone's perception is very different and what may be fast and hectic to some, may in fact be ho hum for others.

IG, RJ, I think we're all saying the same thing.

Earlier this year, before all the these accidents started happening, when I was out riding with only the boys, there were moments when I'd ride at what I considered a fast pace - 90%, 9/10ths, however you want to say it. In these rare moments, everything ceased to exist. I never heard my bike, I never heard the music coming for my ipod, I didn't feel the vibration from the bike, and I had no thoughts. Nothing. There was only my body and my bike cohabiting and acting as one. Sounds real corny I know, but it's true. These times are rare and I can count on my fingers when I've allowed myself to get to that state. The first time this state happened this year Cru almost went down. Had he gone down, it wouldn't have pretty and he would've most definitely ended up broken. Picture a chicane, a hard left going into a hard right. Both turns are 90°. I'm not 100% sure what the sign at these turns say but I think they say 10mph. One this particular day, even though I was riding pretty hard, I was curious how fast I was about to enter this set of turns so I snuck a peek at the speedo right at corner entry. I was a little surprised to see 97mph and as I reached the first corner's apex, I was already cracking up from what I saw on the speedo. These are the times that I generally don't post about as I like to keep them for myself, but reflecting on these instances has caused me to slow down a lot on the street and I think I have.

Michelle, as Cru said, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding these group rides. If I want for them to continue to happen, then I'll literally have to putt putt around all day, at least for the open call rides. If I want to have a more spirited ride, I'll have to plainly say that the ride will be spirited and I'll have to pick and choose who all gets to go. If I want to ride fast, well, then I guess I won't post up at all.

Regarding winter riding... Michelle, once again I agree 100% with you. For those that have never ridden with me before, or have ridden with me last season, you'll know all about my "skill building" exercises. For those don't know about these exercises, image a really crappy road. Potholes, dirt, gravel, broken pavement, or simply a dirt road up a mountain. A road fit for only a 4x4. Now imagine that road being twisty and undulating either up or down a mountain or both. To me, this type of road is a "skill building" road. Just like riding in the rain or snow or even ice, nothing will teach you throttle control, how your body position effects how the bike handles, and braking threshold like one of these crappy roads. Wanna learn how to steer the bike with your hips? Ride up and down Flatbush Ave in the rain during rush hour in 2nd gear. Wanna learn how to safely stop your bike from 60mph? Find a parking lot near you, preferably one with a crappy surface and have at it. Wanna learn how to turn the bike using only the throttle and pressure on the pegs? Find a dirt road and go play. Wanna have confidence in the twistys? Go for a ride in the twistys when there's still snow, salt, and ice on the road. By spring, you be a hammer.
These are the things that I think folks who are looking to improve their skills should be doing (aside from proper instruction in a closed environment). These are the things that I think are very worthwhile to learn. Sure I suppose it's cool practicing getting your knee down in an empty parking lot but I think that does little for your skill and ultimately will do nothing for you.

Just a couple of ideas when riding with someone new.  Since the basic reason for going fast on the straight is to get to the next turn, slow down after the turns until folks gather up.  Last rider catches up, next to the last signals up front, etc until the lead gets the signal.  This should reduce the lag between the fast and the not as fast.  Corner, sprint, corner, sprint, corner, corner, sprint and before you know it a little faster corner speed plus a little more exit speed leads to a really stretched out group, the slower rider looses sight of the group and starts pushing the limits.  Also, no passing on the double yellow or passing groups of cars.  Just one more.  If the group goes beyond six, split the group.

Leading a group ride is also about picking the right roads. You guys seem to plan the ride around the roads rather than the roads around the ride. If you're taking noobs out, don't go on roads with really super hard sections. That's why I stopped taking people on Ohayo Mountain Road. I had two people go down on that road even after I'd stopped and explained that it was *very* technical and that they should go slow. Human nature is what it is so it doesn't always help to slow down.

On other sites that I've been involved in, most of the time people organize group rides and set the pace. If more people show up or want to go that have a lower skill level then you split groups and have someone lead the slow group slowly. The US rides usually end up with the noobs riding un-assisted (it seems) and that can lead to issues as we've discovered. If you're going to lead a ride then you kind of have to be a leader before you're a rider. You may be a great leader for the US but that doesn't mean that mindset will transfer across to other people. I've lead some big group rides before and while it's not my preference, it's important to be aware of varying skill levels & control the pace. I failed on my last one (that you guys were on I think) when that gixxer dude went down. I think overall we rode at a reasonable pace for most of the people. That's what makes big groups harder. It's not the numbers it's balancing the skill levels with the roads & the pace.

The other undeniable fact is that some people are just better at riding than others. You guys have achieved a lot through riding together & learning together but some people just aren't capable of riding at that level. It doesn't matter how long or far they ride or how much they ride in winter, they'll never be great riders. This isn't a nice realization for people, accepting that they're just not that good and never will be. I have a friend that started riding at the same time as me he just never progressed like I did and didn't really care to. He's a competent rider but I can ride away from him going at like 35%. I've had two friends start riding this past year and I've been leading them around. I take them on some of the roads upstate but most I don't. One of them got better faster (although he's over confident) and the other not so fast (she's more cautious and will probably end up being a better rider for it if she gets over her timidity).

The point is that when you're leading a ride, it's not just another ride, you're a leader not a rider. Same goes for the sweep. You have a job to do. Evaluating people's respective skill levels is important and can be critical to planning a safe & fun ride. When you're riding with friends all about the same level it's a different story, you're actually just navigating, any of you could lead if you all knew the roads.

Good points made here about your relative increase in skill compared to others.

Not to beat a dead horse but... I broke down all the accidents that have taken place during these rides this year in my head and they play out as follows -

- lowside in gravel from running wide
  cause - target fiaxation. Rider was a newb following me going ~20mph

- lowside in gravel from running wide
  cause - corner entry speed too fast which lead to target fixation. Rider not a newb but still learning.

- lowside (pt.1) from running wide
  cause - corner entry speed too fast, not looking through turn. Rider not a newb but still learning.

- lowside (pt.2)
  cause - target fixation. Rider not a newb but was probably following the rider in front of them too closely and ended up fixating on them while they ran wide and crashed. Was a good thing the rider in front didn't get run over.

- smacked into a rock wall
  cause - corner entry speed too fast. Experienced rider but might have felt pressure from the rider behind as they were following very close.

- lowside
  cause - target fixation coupled with too much front brake. Riding in hectic twistys IS NOT the place to learn how to trail brake!!

- lowside
  cause - corner entry speed too fast.

- lowside
  cause - corner entry speed too fast.

- lowside
  cause - target fixation.

Do you guys see a pattern here? Of all these accidents, I'd consider only 2 riders to be newbs. Newbs with skills, but newbs nonetheless. What we have hear are people riding over their limits plain and simple. Again, not to beat a dead horse, but these accidents  happened when I was leading and the pace that I set was moderate at best. By moderate, I mean I was hovering around 40% or 4/10ths which is where I hover when I feel like a moderate pace. Only one of the accidents happened when I as the "leader" was riding about 80% or 8/10ths.

Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 07:32:39 AM
The point is that when you're leading a ride, it's not just another ride, you're a leader not a rider... You have a job to do.

Get out of my head Dan, these exact thoughts have already been coursing through my little brain. The future group ride postings will be amended along these lines. I still feel like I hold a lot of the responsibility for these accidents since I was leading so I'm listening to whatever you smart folks have to say.


 

Quote from: goldenchild on October 21, 2008, 12:18:11 PM
Get out of my head Dan, these exact thoughts have already been coursing through my little brain. The future group ride postings will be amended along these lines. I still feel like I hold a lot of the responsibility for these accidents since I was leading so I'm listening to whatever you smart folks have to say.

Ok my turn.  Now listen up i usually am always joking around but after some thought i have some serious words on this subject. 

I know you must feel like these accidents are your fault GC but plain and simple they are not.  People might want to catch up and not be the one left behind but you know what?  Every single ride you tell everyone to ride at a pace they are comfortable at IT IS NOT A RACE.  And judging from most of the accidents this year a lot of them seem to be common mistakes that a lot of us have been guilty of.

Target fixation seems like the main reason and for one is a common issue and its something not everybody knows about right away. For those who have done other sports that involve pretty much anything that moves you are familiar with this mistake, always look where you want to go. 

Coming in too fast?  We have all been guilty of it but i would say that a lot of roads have posted signs with a  recommended speed if you feel that you are too unfamiliar with the next turn or road take it down a notch.  I have come to plenty of signs that read 25mph but it was completely blind and i brought it down to 20mph.

Those are my opinions on that but this is the main part here.  Everyone and i mean EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions i do not buy the whole blaming it on somebody else bullshit.  I have crashed on 10mph turn and you know what it was COMPLETELY my fault i knew my tires were cold, i knew i should have hung off the bike so my bike would have stayed more upright but i did not and therefore i kissed pavement.  I learned from this though....

You can not go blaming the leader if he has consistently warned you about how technical the roads are and to ride at your own pace.  Because GC you do stop at every intersection after the twisties and wait and you do not yell at the person if they are going slow.  On both rides i have been on i have been far from the fastest and i took my time, just because i could not see you does not mean i rode any faster.  I was responsible for my own personal safety not the guy who was 5 bike lengths or even a 1/4 mile ahead of me.  They are not controlling my throttle, body position, braking, and overall situational awareness I AM.  If i eat shit in that next corner because i came in at 100mph even though the turn read 30mph thats my fault.

Granted there is a responsibility for the group as a whole and since you are leading you do feel some guilt for all that has happened.  I would feel the same way and i understand where you are coming from.  Granted i have not lead many motorcycle rides but i have been leading plenty of other sports for years.  However it is not like you are leading people down a cliff drop snowboarding, double black diamond, or say a 10foot drop mountain biking or 15foot waves surfing in the middle of a storm.  These are roads that any car can travel on so if you slow down and work on just being smooth you will be ok.  Accidents and mistakes happen and the best you can do is be prepared for and minimizing them by wearing proper gear, having warm tires, researching proper techniques and practicing.  But most importantly people have to learn from their mistakes and if we NEVER EVER made a mistake nobody would ever improve. 

I do see as the super long rides and fatigue can really were some people out, however i felt that this is understood from your posts for signups of each ride.  I personally know that i need a good nights rest before hand, a good dinner and to be mentally prepared.  There are certain things someone should do before participating in any sport that would seem common knowledge to a lot of us.  But this is not always the case and maybe we all need to make a collective effort to post things such as preride rituals so others can learn what to do before a big ride.
I guess though a lot of people do not see it through my eyes, to some its always a competition, granted i am competitive but at anywhere above 60mph on roads i do not know i suppress that a bit.  I do think though that being more selective on your rides will bring more joy to you and everyone who rides with you.  If you need to unwind and have a fast day then take whoever you know can keep up. 

However if you want a ride to meet new people and just take it easy make it open call, and maybe map out some easier routes this will ease your mind and everybody else on the ride., from those rides you can figure out who to bring on the more advanced rides next time.  You could also post or pm the route beforehand, if possible i know you are changing them up until sunday morning, that way getting people comfortable with where they are going to be.  You have to look out for yourself too, remember this sport is about having fun if your not having fun why ride?

In the end though we are all responsible for our own actions we ride our own bikes not the rider in front or behind us.  That's my opinion and i am in no way looking to fight with anybody here thats why they are opinions and not everybody agrees with them.

Quote from: GLantern on October 21, 2008, 12:52:26 PMGranted there is a responsibility for the group as a whole and since you are leading you do feel some guilt for all that has happened.  I would feel the same way and i understand where you are coming from.  Granted i have not lead many motorcycle rides but i have been leading plenty of other sports for years.  However it is not like you are leading people down a cliff drop snowboarding, double black diamond, or say a 10foot drop mountain biking or 15foot waves surfing in the middle of a storm.  These are roads that any car can travel on so if you slow down and work on just being smooth you will be ok.  Accidents and mistakes happen and the best you can do is be prepared for and minimizing them by wearing proper gear, having warm tires, researching proper techniques and practicing.  But most importantly people have to learn from their mistakes and if we NEVER EVER made a mistake nobody would ever improve.

I have to disagree here.

The thing about riding a motorcycle is that you can be on the same stretch of road and have it be like a mosey through the park on one pass and then like you're free basing napalm on the next. I ride some of my roads at a snoozy 60mph average (I can do that pretty easily in the car) or I can pick up the pace to like 80 or 90. That's not riding my limits. When I have noobs following me, I may not even get to the speed limit. I'm going at their pace because I'm leading them. If I'm riding with buddies who are at my level (or who I know are very good at riding their own ride) then I'll go whatever speed I'm happy. The main distinction is that if you're leading a group ride, you set the pace based on the speed of the group. If you're riding with buddies it's a different story.

I agree that Eric isn't responsible for these accidents because his hand wasn't on the bars, however, in the interests of minimizing accidents, the leader should ride at the pace of the group, not the other way around. If there are multiple skill levels, the group needs to be split up. The reason for this distinction is that riding a motorcycle at speed has a large mental component (like a cliff drop) with a corresponding skill requirement. The faster you go the higher the skill level required but also the more taxing it is mentally for people that are pushing their limits. Some people reach a point where they're going to be overloaded and then, you guessed it, fixate & go down.

This isn't anything new here guys, this is what group riding is about - the group. If you're (not specifically you GC) not into that idea then think about not running group rides and sticking to just riding with friends.

There is some really good insight in this thread.

It is not the ride leaders fault...

it is his/her responsibility to realize that as the group grows everything needs to change.

None of us recognize our progress in riding ability.

We don't perceive how much faster we've gotten.

Michelle can probably tell a story about how I was reprimanded for forgetting just that.

Ride safe everyone.

Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 01:36:42 PM
I have to disagree here.

I think we've come full circle and I agree with Evil.

I feel like we can discuss this til we're all blue in the face, or at least until we all get carpel tunnel and we still won't agree which isn't a bad thing and it certainly makes for an interesting and active NYMMC (it's about time people, SHEESH).

For the remainder of the season and for seasons to come I'll be running my rides differently, stay tuned for details. I also want to say thanks everyone for your participation, openess and advice in this dilemma, you've all been a great help.

fag













Hopefully I can join you some time.

For a ride...

On motorcycles...

Each on our own motorcycles...

Why am I a cigarette?

I have several off color responses but I'll give it a rest.

I don't totally agree with setting a pace. It's tricky business and in my experience it can lull a following rider into a false sense of security. If you hold back for the people behind you, there's a good chance they're holding back most of the time too so they don't run up your ass. Your mind might wander and you gradually up the pace without noticing or you hit a very technical section of road and suddenly someone behind you is in over their head. They've been following you the whole ride easily matching the pace you set, now they're in trouble and they didn't see it coming.

Quote from: goldenchild on October 21, 2008, 12:18:11 PM
Not to beat a dead horse but... I broke down all the accidents that have taken place during these rides this year in my head and they play out as follows -

- lowside (pt.1) from running wide
  cause - corner entry speed too fast, not looking through turn. Rider not a newb but still learning.
 

That sounds awfully familiar .

Quote from: univox on October 22, 2008, 05:58:19 AMI don't totally agree with setting a pace. It's tricky business and in my experience it can lull a following rider into a false sense of security. If you hold back for the people behind you, there's a good chance they're holding back most of the time too so they don't run up your ass. Your mind might wander and you gradually up the pace without noticing or you hit a very technical section of road and suddenly someone behind you is in over their head. They've been following you the whole ride easily matching the pace you set, now they're in trouble and they didn't see it coming.

So don't run group rides. It is a tricky business, which is why I say that a group ride is not like riding with your buddies. I disagree that holding back means everyone else is holding back too. Yes, it's been said that not running a good pace can lead to inattentiveness however, you've failed in the example that you give to set an appropriate pace an evaluate the riders in your group.

The point of setting a pace is so that the whole group can enjoy the ride *on a group ride*. If your group is too disparate in skills to run one pace, break the group up into smaller groups. The idea of setting a viable pace is not to run a group ride in the vein of a HD charity event but to set a pace such that everyone can enjoy the corners and relax in the straights. The Pace is still applied in order for everyone to ride their own speed but this must be tempered by the good of the group. What you seem to be talking about is setting a pace that is too slow. Quite frankly, you can't account for people who aren't paying attention, if people have an inclination to drift off, don't invite them or have them run a faster group.

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, people go down. I've been on a ride where someone ran off the road going under the speed limit, on a two lane (each direction) highway because their mind was on other things. I had planned to talk to him at the next stop (I was running sweep) and let him know that he needed to concentrate more because he'd been running wide on several very easy corners. He had been running at his own pace, just wasn't there. In this example, the leader could have stopped the ride & talked to him. I could have done the same. The next stop was only like 15 minutes away.

This is where personal responsibility & maturity come into the picture. This person should never have been riding that day. He had some pretty serious family issues going on. He wanted to take his mind off of them but couldn't. He should have stayed home or stopped riding. The leader (a good friend of mine) set a good pace, the sweep (me) was keeping an eye on the guy (he was pretty new) but we just didn't catch it in time. Do I feel responsible? No way in hell. I'm not at the controls, nor did I force him out the door onto his bike that morning.

Like I said, leading a group ride is not the same as going for a ride. It take a lot of skill, judgment and awareness to run a group at a safe speed. I'm not saying I'm the expert here, I'm just trying to really spell out the differences in what we often call a group ride and what is actually a group ride.