Balancing is important and I can't believe anybody would put 1 to 2 lbs. additional weight on/in a wheel in order to balance it - unsprung wt.

If I mount at home I use spoons with plastic rim protectors.  Cheap, but it is a pain in the ass.  You can bend the disc carrier if not careful too. Rear, no prob.  You can use a 22 gal. grease drum with a split heater hose installed on the rim to change fronts on. Disc fit down in the drum.

The Marc Parnes balancer. Very simple, cheap, and very accurate.  http://www.marcparnes.com/Ducati_Motorcycle_Wheel_Balancer.htm

I use a bead breaker from JC Whitney.







LA

Quote from: LA on November 04, 2008, 10:08:41 AM
Balancing is important and I can't believe anybody would put 1 to 2 lbs. additional weight on/in a wheel in order to balance it - unsprung wt.

I believe he meant 1 ounce in the front wheel and two ounces in the rear.....not pounds.

I recently bought enough to do a couple sets of wheels to try them out. Everyone I know rants about how great they are and one guy recently did a trackday using them for balancing and said that he was hitting 150+ mph and it was smooth riding.

My wife's R1 has some other brand balancing beads in it (they already came inside a spare set of wheels), and I really haven't seen a difference in wear, tire life, nor vibration, but I'm interested in seeing how the Dynabeads work (or don't work) on a couple of bikes, especialy the 748. I haven't balanced the rear wheel on my 748 for the last five tires or so. I haven't noticed any weird vibrations up to an indicatied 145 mph and the tires all wore out in the same amount of miles as the ones that were balanced. I also figure that when a rear tire is toast in less than 3000 miles (my wife's last read Dunlop was on the wear bars in 1600 miles), I should probably be rebalancing after every weekend (600-1000 miles) because the tire wear has probably created an out of balance wheel.

Putting beads of anything inside the tyre to balance the wheel is complete nonsense and a waste of money.
Like LA, I've got a balance shaft from Marc Parnes - excellent bit of kit. Keep to convention with balance weights stuck on the rim and do it properly.

Quote from: Jethro on November 04, 2008, 11:34:28 AM
Putting beads of anything inside the tyre to balance the wheel is complete nonsense and a waste of money.
Like LA, I've got a balance shaft from Marc Parnes - excellent bit of kit. Keep to convention with balance weights stuck on the rim and do it properly.

That's the way I've always thought about it, but for $6 per set of wheels, I figured I'd try it out and see for myself before I start spewing out about how much nonsense it is. It actually does NOT make much sense to me, as I would think that the beads would concentrate in abnormal spots of the tires which are the furthest from the center of the wheel, and NOT necessarily concentrate on the actual lightest spot of the tire/wheel, but others claim this isn't the case. I'm curious and it's about the cost of an order of tacos at a Mexican restaurant.   

This is Dynabead's website... http://www.innovativebalancing.com/

I still have my doubts that it works, but I could be wrong....Hmmmm...I wonder if I stuck some in my drier if it would smooth out an unbalanced load.   

Modern tyres are so well made that they don't contribute very much to the out of balnce force - it's nearly all the cast wheel. What you can do, if you don't want to balance the wheel and tyre every time, is balance the wheel on it's own and then just fit tyres from then on.
I don't do this as I'm in no hurry and enjoy getting it as accurate as I can even if that's not completely necessary, but what's an extra 10 minutes?

Quote from: Jethro on November 04, 2008, 12:06:39 PM
What you can do, if you don't want to balance the wheel and tyre every time, is balance the wheel on it's own and then just fit tyres from then on.

Both rear wheels we have for the R1 are so grossly out of balance that the wheels with tires mounted were requiring 3-4 ounces of weights when static balancing. I found the heavy spot of each wheel without tire, which was NOT at the valve stem as most people suspect, and I mount the tire with the dot aligned with the heaviest spot of the rim. This cut the weight required down to 2 ounces. With the one wheel, I went so far as to check the balance of the wheel without the sprocket carrier and sprocket and then with the sprocket while rotating the carrier in every possible position to see if I could shave even more weight off when balancing....I went so far as to mark each cush drive so I could install them in the same order every time. The end result was that I wasted my time.   

As for tires being well balanced from the factory, from what I've seen and heard, Michelin is the only company that does not place weight dots on the sidewalls....they view it as showing the world that they have a faulty product. With all other brands, the balance of the tire must be fairly significant for them to be marking them. I have never run an experiment for mounting and remounting tires in different positions on the wheel to check balancing, but I tend to trust that those dots are there for a reason and not for cosmetics.....I think it would make for a cool experiment.

I also wonder how well balanced a tire is halfway through the tire's tread life. I don't recall anyone rebalancing a tire after it is initially done unless there is a vibration issue. I know a well-worn front tire on the front of the R1 was not the best balanced when I checked in an effort to solve a front-end vibration issue. If the balancing differs much during a tire's life and it is best to keep the assembly balanced, then everyone should be balancing tires every few hundred miles. I know this last set of tires on the R1 were toast (both of them) at 1700 miles, so I would suspect that they should have been rebalanced after every ride to keep them well balanced.   

Whoops!! yes, I meant ounces.... not pounds!

The concept behind the beads is simple, but easy to get confused.  Say your wheel is unbalanced.  The center of mass is not where the axle is located. This would cause the wheel to *want* to rotate around an axis different from where the axle is (the center of mass axis).  The wheel is kind of an eccentric wheel when it is unbalanced.  Since it will want to rotate around this new axis, the beads will move towards the farthest point from the center of mass, thus offsetting the weight difference and balancing the wheel.  It would be nice to see this actually happening in a *transparent* tire setup...

Quote from: carlosbarrios on November 05, 2008, 02:21:52 PM
The center of mass is not where the axle is located. This would cause the wheel to *want* to rotate around an axis different from where the axle is (the center of mass axis).  The wheel is kind of an eccentric wheel when it is unbalanced.  Since it will want to rotate around this new axis, the beads will move towards the farthest point from the center of mass, thus offsetting the weight difference and balancing the wheel. 

What I look at, though, is that how do you know that the furthest point from the axle is actually the point in which the additional weight is needed? Why couldn't the weight be needed at a point that is closer to the axle? Some tires have a rib on the inside where it looks like the carcus is joined. One side could be higher than the other side of the rib, and with the ribbing, maybe the weight is needed on the opposite side of the wheel, but it cannot get there because it is stuck in a little pocket on the inside of the tire......I'm sure it is a possibility. Heck, also take into consideration the deflection and deformation of tires when under acceleration and braking. Watching a Top-Fuel dragster's rear tires increase nearly 100% in outer diameter on take off show this.

The other thing I look at, especailly at lower speeds, the wheel does not stay perfectly round. The part making contact with the road becomes a little flattened and becomes closer to the axle than other sections of tire, and the weight of the bike and rider and pressure in the tires can affect the amount of deformation at this contact area. Then, also figure that the deformation from the contact area will cause a bump, disrupt the beads (especailly at lower speeds), and then the beads will need to reposition themselves....and may not do it by the time it makes a revolution and they get disrupted again.

I wasn't the best in my dynamics class and anything dealing with certifical forces, so I could be completely off my rocker. I think I understand the principles, but don't really see them working the way they are supposed to....maybe I'm just thinking too much into them. I've had enough people who's opinions have always appeared to be pretty good, so I'm going to try some of these myself. I'm interested to see, and feel, if there may be any noticable differences.

My head hurts...

Quote from: Desmo Demon on November 05, 2008, 03:00:39 AM
I found the heavy spot of each wheel without tire, which was NOT at the valve stem as most people suspect, and I mount the tire with the dot aligned with the heaviest spot of the rim. This cut the weight required down to 2 ounces.

That is very good advice and it is what I've always found. 2oz is still a lot of weight though, I usually need 20g = 0.7oz. The point I was trying to make about just balancing the rim on its own and then fitting tyres from then on was directed at the guys who fit their own tyres but don't balance them although I agree it's not ideal. My experience of balancing wheels has always shown that most of the out-of-balance really is the rim. I know some guys who don't balance wheels say they don't feel any vibration but that doesn't mean it isn't there and the effect can be seen as uneven tyre wear so if they can get just the rim balanced once, they would have much better balance than not bothering.

You should only balance the wheel without the sprocket carrier so the wheel is rotating on its own bearings. The wheel bearings and sprocket carrier bearings are only correctly in-line when the wheel is clamped on the axle and this will not be the case when mounted on the balancer shaft.

I got charged an hour of shop time by the dealer to have front and rear changed out and balanced.  That's hard to beat, people.

Quote from: tangueroHondo on November 09, 2008, 09:42:23 AM
I got charged an hour of shop time by the dealer to have front and rear changed out and balanced.  That's hard to beat, people.

Yeah, that's not too bad.....I guess.....What's the shop rate? $50/hr? $75/hr? $95/hr?

After four tire changes, my Harbor Freight tire changer was paid for, so by tire #5 the tire change was FREE and I didn't have to drive anywhere and waste my time and gas to have someone else change my tire (yet, alone PAY them to do it). I also can move my tire changer into the living room and change tires while I watch TV.....not to mention I can change a tire on a Saturday evening when every other place is closed and I want to ride first-thing Sunday morning. 

I figure in the last year, I've saved at least $300 at $20 per wheel carried into the local dealer....not counting the time to drive there and back and the time I had to wait to let them do it......and let's not forget $4/gallon gas for most of the summer. I've even gotten a few free dinners and cases of beer for changing tires from some of my buddies.   

Well.....I can't really explain it, but my wife is tickled silly over the difference in her R1 with the installation of the Dynabeads....

Vicki's R1 developed a headshake back in May. It had gradually gotten worse over the months. Initially, we suspected that it was a front tire balancing issue, so I rebalanced the tire. It didn't make much of a difference. This headshake got so bad that she could take one hand off the bars, but would never attempt to take both off for fear of a tank slapper occuring. To compensate, she cranked the steering damper to be very, very firm, but the heashake was still there. I rebalanced the first tire once. Then we went through two more tires, even used her spare front rim, and static balanced each tire a couple of times. Rebalancing made the headshake a little better each time, but not good enough to feel good about riding the bike. The R1 is her favorite bike to ride, but the headshake, especially when leaned over in a curve, was not only physically and mentally draining, but was quite unsafe. I had finally decided that the problem was with the steering stem bearings, and I was thinking about replacing them this winter. Anyway, I installed the Dynabeads on Friday and we went riding Saturday.....

We were heading up toward the mountains and going through a small town about 5 miles from the house when Vicki realized something was wrong with her bike. She couldn't figure it out, but it finally dawned on her that the R1 was too smooth....yes, TOO SMOOTH. Then she remembered about the Dynabeads and took her left hand off the bar.....the bars were true and weren't pulsing. She then risked it and took her other hand off the bars....the bike rode smooth and straight. For the next five miles, she'd speed up, slow down, and any combination of anything she could think of to try taking her hands off the bars to check for stability.....the bike rode as smooth and straight as can be.

Over the next two days, she'd ridden over 500 miles and ridden on roads with tight twisties, wide sweepers, and everything in between. She's even gone 130+ mph and the bike handles as steady as a rock. She's glad to have the R1 that she originally bought. She's tickled and happy as can be. The bike tracked and rode as smooth as she remembered it should. Riding on some of these roads was pleasant and very ejoyable for her, again....and her speeds were faster than they'd been all summer....

That's her testimony, but I still find it a little difficult to believe. 

DD, did you put the dynabeads in along with mounting a new tire, or just put the dynabeads in?

Quote from: Desmo Demon on November 12, 2008, 08:17:48 AM
Yeah, that's not too bad.....I guess.....What's the shop rate? $50/hr? $75/hr? $95/hr?

After four tire changes, my Harbor Freight tire changer was paid for, so by tire #5 the tire change was FREE and I didn't have to drive anywhere and waste my time and gas to have someone else change my tire (yet, alone PAY them to do it). I also can move my tire changer into the living room and change tires while I watch TV.....not to mention I can change a tire on a Saturday evening when every other place is closed and I want to ride first-thing Sunday morning. 

I figure in the last year, I've saved at least $300 at $20 per wheel carried into the local dealer....not counting the time to drive there and back and the time I had to wait to let them do it......and let's not forget $4/gallon gas for most of the summer. I've even gotten a few free dinners and cases of beer for changing tires from some of my buddies.   

Wow, the HarborFreight changer is exactly what I've been looking for. There's another version of this (NoMar) but it's over $600!
Does this tire changer have to be bolted down to use it?
Also, I can picture how it helps get the old tire off, but does it also assist in putting on the new tire?