Quote from: toolfan on December 08, 2008, 01:35:26 PM
How did you learn?
Organized instruction, or through a friend?

organized

Quote
Also - honestly, if the concept that closing the throttle will lead to deceleration is completely foreign to someone, I don't think they are ready to ride a motorcycle.  JMHO and all.

thanks. you're sweet.


It was the abrupt and sudden slow down that got me. In a car, I had never experience something so abrupt when taking my foot off the gas. Had I known it would be as harsh as it was, I woulda been ok with it.


But I guess i wasn't ready to ride, even though I had taken the MSF and practiced. Awesome.

I use engine braking all the time on the track, silly goose!

When Im in a turn, on throttle opens the radius, while off throttle tightens it.  The tightening of the radius is a result of the bike slowing down and dipping in from engine breaking.

Here are two more realistic scenario's.

#1 - If your riding out in some unpopulated area, and an animal runs out in front of you, you are going to grab a handful of front break and not give two shits about engine breaking.  Its not going to make you slow down any faster, and is only one more thing to "process" while trying to slow and avoid said animal.

#2 - Your riding along and in the distance you see a light turn yellow.  You start the process of a controlled stop which may, or may not include engine breaking.

#3 - When Jacob is feltching, there is no time for brakes, or throttle, its just go time!

Quote from: ryandalling on December 08, 2008, 12:51:51 PM
Can I hire you to teach? Need to get that wifey of mine out on the bike more often.

It's all her now man.  What she needs is seat time.  If she wants someone other than you to escort her, I'd be down to help out some time... but she's got to want it on her own.  Best not to force it.

Quote from: JBubble on December 08, 2008, 01:37:43 PM
organized

thanks. you're sweet.

In Kackilacky, so MSF?  Isn't one of the questions in excercise 1 "what happens when you close the throttle?" "it returns to idle."  Or something of that nature? 
When did you first discover engine braking? (I can't remember the MSF excercises that well, there are 2 straddle walking excercises, yeah?  We don't have MSF in OR anymore.)

I'm a dick, but it's true.  Motorcycles are dangerous, you did the right thing by taking a course.  You weren't ready to ride a motorcycle before that experience.

Quote from: toolfan on December 08, 2008, 01:43:47 PM

In Kackilacky, so MSF?  Isn't one of the questions in excercise 1 "what happens when you close the throttle?" "it returns to idle."  Or something of that nature? 
When did you first discover engine braking? (I can't remember the MSF excercises that well, there are 2 straddle walking excercises, yeah?  We don't have MSF in OR anymore.)

I'm a dick, but it's true.  Motorcycles are dangerous, you did the right thing by taking a course.  You weren't ready to ride a motorcycle before that experience.

I didn't ride a motorcycle before taking the course Elias.

I discovered it out on the road on my bike.

Yes, in North Carolina, yes the MSF.

I did not experience engine braking in the course that I took. We were either on the brakes, or on the throttle, or had the clutch pulled. Maybe it was a fault in the way they taught the course, but I didn't experience it.

I'll state, again, I wish they had taught what engine braking was and had us experience it. And, again, maybe that was a flaw in the way the course was taught.

Quote from: Visolara on December 08, 2008, 01:41:26 PM
I use engine braking all the time on the track, silly goose!

When Im in a turn, on throttle opens the radius, while off throttle tightens it.  The tightening of the radius is a result of the bike slowing down and dipping in from engine breaking.

Where have I heard that before?    This is true.  Honestly, I can't recall ever significantly rolling on/off to affect my line, I actually do almost all of my directional control Code style - hands on the bars.  I'm not comfortable breaking traction so I never really tried to learn to steer with the rear wheel.  

Quote from: Visolara on December 08, 2008, 01:41:26 PM
Here are two more realistic scenario's.

#1 - If your riding out in some unpopulated area, and an animal runs out in front of you, you are going to grab a handful of front break and not give two shits about engine breaking.  Its not going to make you slow down any faster, and is only one more thing to "process" while trying to slow and avoid said animal.

100% yes - this is why engine braking is a "noise" thing with newbs.  They should learn to stop RIGHT NOW, not eventually.

Quote from: Visolara on December 08, 2008, 01:41:26 PM
#2 - Your riding along and in the distance you see a light turn yellow.  You start the process of a controlled stop which may, or may not include engine breaking.

Also true - and a skill that is VERY easily self taught.

Quote from: Visolara on December 08, 2008, 01:41:26 PM

#3 - When Jacob is feltching, there is no time for brakes, or throttle, its just go time!

Agreed.  I think.  Maybe not.


PS - It's BRAKES, make the beast with two backsstick.

Quote from: JBubble on December 08, 2008, 01:49:33 PM
I didn't ride a motorcycle before taking the course Elias.

I discovered it out on the road on my bike.

Yes, in North Carolina, yes the MSF.

I did not experience engine braking in the course that I took. We were either on the brakes, or on the throttle, or had the clutch pulled. Maybe it was a fault in the way they taught the course, but I didn't experience it.

I'll state, again, I wish they had taught what engine braking was and had us experience it. And, again, maybe that was a flaw in the way the course was taught.

I respecfully disagree.  There are several excercises where you ride in circles with other riders in front of and behind you.  You used, to some degree, the throttle to modulate your speed to keep a safe (or maybe not so safe) following distance.  A 125 single or twin, which is what you were riding, does not offer engine braking forces on the same scale of a larger v-twin, neither do most I-4 engines or anything with a slipper clutch.
See, it wasn't "engine braking" that caused you problems - it was the scale of such from a (relatively) large displacement twin.  Teaching to your specific bike is not within the scope of a 2 day general beginners riding class, such as the MSC BRC or the TO BRT. 

I'd also ask - what are other tasks, which now seem simple, that almost threw you on your ass?  Did you ever have an "oh shit" moment when trying to operate the turn signals?  Stall it at a busy intersection?  These are things, like smooth throttle control, that can only be taught by repetition, which means that after learning the basics, you have to take ownership and practice these things in a safe manner.

I'll state it again - this is not something that should be taught, either in a beginner motorcycle class, or a road racing course.  This is something that can safely be self-learned. 
On further reflection, it is simply a matter of smooth throttle control - which is a skill that I will readily admit that I have not yet mastered, with all of my experiences. 

You are a dick toolio, but those of us who know and love you as well as we do love you in spite of it. Hell, because of it!!



Hey when are we getting beers again?

You're so right. I should have practiced a technique that I had never heard of nor experienced before.





In other news, I'll be out there on Friday. Mother wanted to get drinks with you.

Quote from: JBubble on December 08, 2008, 02:09:13 PM
You're so right. I should have practiced a technique that I had never heard of nor experienced before.





In other news, I'll be out there on Friday. Mother wanted to get drinks with you.

You are hard to argue with.  So, you didn't use the throttle to modulate your speed during the course?  That was indeed a deficient course, no wonder we kicked those totalitarian scummake the beast with two backss to the curb.


I'm always down to drink with Mommy and mommy.

PS - (I'm not sure if capital M is for those who have borne children, or those who haven't.)

PPS - the nanny filter on this board sucks. 


triple ps -
would you share the circumstances that engine braking almost caused you to dump your bike?

I never really had an issue with engine braking, but it may have been because I started off at relatively low speeds and worked up from there so I was able to get used to the front end dropping suddenly if I grabbed a bunch of brake at once. I also drive a manual so since I learned to drive I have been using the clutch to slow to a stop along with the brake, I just kinda naturally did that with the bike too. But you know, I also didn't take any courses, just learned on the street so to speak, so yeah.

my thought about it is this:

Why argue? You're not changing my mind and I'm not changing yours.


And you can turn the Language filter off.

Quote from: NeenjaMastah on December 08, 2008, 02:18:48 PM
I never really had an issue with engine braking, but it may have been because I started off at relatively low speeds and worked up from there so I was able to get used to the front end dropping suddenly if I grabbed a bunch of brake at once. I also drive a manual so since I learned to drive I have been using the clutch to slow to a stop along with the brake, I just kinda naturally did that with the bike too. But you know, I also didn't take any courses, just learned on the street so to speak, so yeah.

Plus your bike doesn't have much engine braking available (small displacement)...

Quote from: JBubble on December 08, 2008, 02:25:44 PM
my thought about it is this:

Why argue? You're not changing my mind and I'm not changing yours.


And you can turn the Language filter off.

I wasn't trying to argue with YOU. 
I don't really care to change your mind, it's made up - but I am open to your opinions,
and I have a slightly professional vested interest in discussions about rider training...
and motorcycle dynamics is one of my favorite studies...


Can I guess what the circumstances were?

I think 8-10 mph, first gear, mid-turn in a parking lot.

Yea, nay?

Quote from: JBubble on December 08, 2008, 02:25:44 PM
my thought about it is this:

Why argue? You're not changing my mind and I'm not changing yours.


And you can turn the Language filter off.

Because both of you feel an incessant need to be right.

No Elias. It did not happen like that.

let's get together, and feeeeeel alright.

You ever grab some brake and they fail? It feels like you instantly gain 10 mph. How come?  

damn hippies