maybe Dannyboy meant "crap front end"... 

Quote from: derby on April 21, 2009, 06:12:41 AM
the same crap bike that rossi and hayden won championships on? ok....

Quote from: ZLTFUL on April 21, 2009, 08:13:33 AM
Not going to Derby Derby but Derby has a very good point. Hehe.

that's interesting.   I didn't know those guys won on satellite Hondas.   Learn something new everyday.

maybe they were some small percentage point different but they were all still RC211Vs. 

Stoner was on a one bike team that was also new to MotoGP.  Seems to be a far cry from a factory ride but if you say so...

new to the premiere class.  and he got pole at the first event of 2006.

i'm not saying the LCR honda was a Repsol honda.  but that bike, that engine, was very mature motogp-wise.  both the gresini hondas did well that year, too.  incl elias beating rossi in portugal.

i'm not even going to get into trying to guesstimate the budget differences (vast) but it was still a RC211V, no matter how you cut it.  theoretically, especially at the beginning of the season, the two bikes were fairly equivalent.

plus, the factory bike that changed the most that year over the course of the season (Hayden's) usually changed in the wrong direction.

Quote from: COWBOY on April 21, 2009, 10:06:18 AM
that's interesting.   I didn't know those guys won on satellite Hondas.   Learn something new everyday.

you're right... stoner didn't have to deal with the sabotage clutch that was in hayden's evo bike for the middle part of the season.

but seriously, the customer bikes are generally the same spec as the previous-year factory bikes. the factory bikes are just continuously developed throughout the season (again, see hayden's clutch debacle).

the rc211v (all years) was generally regarded as the best, most-developed, easiest to ride bike in the entire field.

To try and equate his time on the Honda with those experienced by Rossi or even Hayden's step child existence is ridiculous.  Trying to argue their bikes were equivalent is even more insane.  Hell the Factory Hondas that year weren't even the same.  The core bike and parts available to the established satellite teams were likewise different let alone what was left over to offer the new one bike team.   

Move on there is no winning that argument. 

If the argument is over the term "crap" then we can agree.   The RC211 is far from a crap bike.  In fact I can't think of another bike that would be better to use as a starting point to build around.

EDIT.   He got pole in Round 2 that year at .... you guessed it ... Qatar.  Jerez was first that year and Capirosi was on pole.

ah yeah, qatar was 2nd that year.  i think stoner got 6th or so in jerez, no?

can you show me where the major difference was in the '06 factory bike and the '06 satellite bike (at the beginning of the season) that would make it insane to compare them?  i'm sincerely interested.

to imply that it was so different from rossi's 2003 championship-winning rc211 (or gibernau's 2004 runner-up bike, or hayden/melandri's 2005 bikes) that stoner couldn't keep his upright is equally as silly.

as an aside, i haven't kept up with the specifics in the 4-stroke era, but honda's customer nsr500 program was that you leased the bike and a honda engineer from hrc for $1M per bike (and had to give the bike back when the season was over).

it's not like the guys working on these bike are completely clueless.

Is it true that Stoner had no suspension technician/engineer the year he crashed the Honda mercilessly?

Quote from: gm2 on April 21, 2009, 01:35:13 PM
can you show me where the major difference was in the '06 factory bike and the '06 satellite bike (at the beginning of the season) that would make it insane to compare them?  i'm sincerely interested.

2006 was actually a strong RC211 year.  5 of the top 9 were on it (Hayden -1st, Melandri - 4th, Pedrosa - 5th, Roberts - 6th, Stoner - 8th, Elias - 9th).  As far as the differences go the only thing I can think that we could look to would be the top recorded speeds per round.  Out of the first 5 races there was a difference of between 1 and 2 km/h between Hayden/Pedrosa and the other Honda riders with the exception of Turkey at which Melandri and Stoner went 1,2 and posted a top speed .4 km/h faster than Hayden/Pedrosa.  It's a small difference but then again in each of those races a top speed differential of less than .4 km/h was generally the difference between winning and being out of the top 5. 

Quote from: derby on April 21, 2009, 01:37:33 PM
to imply that it was so different from rossi's 2003 championship-winning rc211 (or gibernau's 2004 runner-up bike, or hayden/melandri's 2005 bikes) that stoner couldn't keep his upright is equally as silly.

it's not like the guys working on these bike are completely clueless.

LMAO

1.  I didn't say it was crap, the teams were clueless, nor blame the bike for his binning it 6 times that season. 

2.  You're the ones claiming he was on the same or comparable bike as 2 different Season champions.  I'll I've argued is how laughable that is.

As far as the differences go, tell you what lets make it easy.  Name one modern era racer in MotoGP who has won the championship on a Non-Factory bike.  If they're so similar there should be many (Edit from 1990 to present there have been NONE).  Too hard.  Ok how about counting the number of races won by non-Factory teams over the past 4 years.  I got money it's in single digits.  (EDIT 2005 - 2 - Melandri 2 wins; 2006 - 4 - Melandri 3 wins, Elias 1; 2007 - 0 -; 2008 - 0 -;  Total 6 wins in 4 seasons 5 of which were Melandri's).

Only the factory teams win races and championships but I'm sure that's only because of the huge disparity of talent involved.  The machines I'm sure are identical both mechanically and in support.  If only the Race Gods and Lady Luck would shine upon them.

Quote from: ducpainter on April 21, 2009, 01:43:11 PM
Is it true that Stoner had no suspension technician/engineer the year he crashed the Honda mercilessly?

LMAO.  Is it really a shock that young fast rookies push too hard and bin it?   Lorenzo in a similar rookie campaign binned it 4 times last year on a factory ride from a championship winning garage.  And yes it would be easy to argue he had more resources at his disposal and better support during his rookie campaign than was afforded Stoner -  I'm not sure what the point of such a pissing contest would be though so I don't want to go there.

Another note about how different the bikes were/are year to year etc....

the 2003 Repsol Honda of Rossi won at Mugello with a time of 43'28.008 and top speed of 166.520
the 2006 Repsol Honda of Hayden finished 3rd at Mugello with a time of 42'40.345 and top speed of 169.620 km/h

Rossi's 2003 time would have finished 14th at the 2006 race.

Quote from: COWBOY on April 21, 2009, 06:08:15 PM
<snip>
LMAO.  Is it really a shock that young fast rookies push too hard and bin it?   Lorenzo in a similar rookie campaign binned it 4 times last year on a factory ride from a championship winning garage.  And yes it would be easy to argue he had more resources at his disposal and better support during his rookie campaign than was afforded Stoner -  I'm not sure what the point of such a pissing contest would be though so I don't want to go there.

Who said anything about a pissing contest or Lorenzo?

I asked a question... about Stoner.

Quote from: ducpainter on April 21, 2009, 06:27:08 PM
Who said anything about a pissing contest or Lorenzo?

I asked a question... about Stoner.

More like you made a statement.  Wasn't much of a question.

You're right though obviously the kid had no future.  He should have quit after 2006.  it's all been down hill since then.

I know this is slightly different but according to Australian Motorcycle News April 14 2009,"Tech Talk"
the cost of going 250 GP racing on a Aprilia is $1.4million for a full spec (factory bike) RSA250 or $563000.00 for the lower spec LA250.
So assume that all factory's have the same pricing (approximately) I'm sure for that extra money if you didn't get something special you would be pissed. A satellite team is never going to win a championchip the best he can hope for is a top five.
I'm with cowboy on this one.
Don