Quote from: derby on November 13, 2009, 06:59:14 AM
the argument for going back to ~1000cc is that the 800cc racing sucks.

the argument for production-derivitive motors is that it'll bring costs down.

they're separate issues altogether.

of course, switching back to 1000cc could be a precursor to production-based motors

peter clifford:

http://www.motomatters.com/interview/2009/11/12/peter_clifford_interview_wcm_blata_and_p.html

http://www.motomatters.com/interview/2009/11/13/peter_clifford_interview_part_ii_how_wcm.html

Quote from: teddy037.2 on November 13, 2009, 07:09:37 AM
of course, switching back to 1000cc could be a precursor to production-based motors

that's already part of the equation

Quote from: gm2 on November 13, 2009, 07:15:33 AM
that's already part of the equation

then go tell that to derby 

Quote from: teddy037.2 on November 13, 2009, 07:18:55 AM
then go tell that to derby 

there's a decoder ring problem here.  he knows.

Quote from: gm2 on November 13, 2009, 07:20:46 AM
there's a decoder ring problem here.  he knows.

then I take it back

Quote from: derby on November 13, 2009, 06:59:14 AMthe argument for going back to ~1000cc is that the 800cc racing sucks.

That's subjective IMO.

Quote from: derby on November 13, 2009, 06:59:14 AMthe argument for production-derivitive motors is that it'll bring costs down.

My question is when? F1 keeps doing this, it doesn't save money. It costs money to switch to a new engine. Who's production engine will it be btw? What value does GP provide beyond WSBK if they're using the same engines? How will that affect investment in the series in the long term? Why not allow manufacturers to have a more direct connection from the GP bikes to production bikes? Rather than saying no part of the bike can be part of a production motorcycle, why not let the manufacturers use GP as a testing ground for what will be in their production bikes. Yes, I know they do already but it's arbitrarily disconnected for the sake of regulation. That way the manufacturers could use the investment they're already making into production motorcycles more directly in the development of their GP bikes.

Quote from: derby on November 13, 2009, 06:59:14 AMthey're separate issues altogether.

Agreed

Quote from: EvilSteve on November 13, 2009, 08:06:04 AM
Rather than saying no part of the bike can be part of a production motorcycle, why not let the manufacturers use GP as a testing ground for what will be in their production bikes.

I thought that was the proposal?  Not to force a production-based engine, but to allow it.

Quote from: EvilSteve on November 13, 2009, 08:06:04 AM
That's subjective IMO.

yes it is.  however just about everyone under the sun agrees.

Quote from: EvilSteve on November 13, 2009, 08:06:04 AM
What value does GP provide beyond WSBK if they're using the same engines?

there's a lot more to a bike than the engine.  and "based on" is not "the same". 

besides, in practice this new based-on rule will really only be used by satellite teams & people trying to get into the series.  i highly highly doubt that the 2012 M1 engine is going to come in an R1 case, that the RC213V or GSV-R will suddenly become inline 4's, etc..

Quote from: Cider on November 13, 2009, 08:14:06 AM
I thought that was the proposal?  Not to force a production-based engine, but to allow it.

yep.

Maybe semantics but I'm talking from the opposite direction. My understanding from the proposal was that GP bikes would use a production engine i.e. it's already in a production motorcycle. I'm saying that the rule restricting direct transfer of GP technology to production be removed so that the test motors that the manufacturers are working on would actually end up in the GP bikes i.e. GP motors are pre-cursors to production motors.

Quote from: EvilSteve on November 13, 2009, 08:16:22 AM
My understanding from the proposal was that GP bikes would use a production engine i.e. it's already in a production motorcycle.

no, it would just make that an available option.

Seems kind of dumb to me, we're going to end up with some people running production motors and some not? How does that help the spectacle? How will that change the "800cc racing sucks" situation if the main teams are still running GP motors?

Quote from: EvilSteve on November 13, 2009, 08:19:00 AM
Seems kind of dumb to me, we're going to end up with some people running production motors and some not? How does that help the spectacle? How will that change the "800cc racing sucks" situation if the main teams are still running GP motors?

you're making the assumption that someone who starts with a production case and then builds an engine and bike around it is going to be way off the mark.

also, we really don't know what "production-based motor" means...

read the peter clifford interview where he talks about the (r1-based) motor they tried to use back in 2003.