To start with, either you know or have reason to know that I love aftermarket parts, the technology of Ducati products and the technology of the aftermarket parts. With that said, I'd kind of like to address the topic of cost and DP systems. There's a few misconceptions goin on.

Cost vs. Performance & Full Systems

Back in the days of yore, a person could "make" their own DP system for a competitive price. Purchase a full exhaust system, that is headers & pipes; acquire an open airbox lid and high flow filter, and reject the carbs with a Factory Pro or other jet kit. The cost, though, was not that much less than a DP full system.

For example, let's look at ol' JV's M900. The cost of DP pipes at the time were around 900. My Ex Box was around the same price and had a comparitive flow to slipons, not a full system. My NCR Titanium pipes retailed for around a grand as well, and could be had "on sale" for awhile for around 750-850, though it has now been discontinued and prices have dropped. Sil equal-length headers cost at or over 1000. That puts pipes alone at a price tag at or around $1,750-$2,000. Throw on a performance filter and Ferracci airbox ring (or other), and you are up to $250. Sure you could cut your stock airbox lid and buy a filter and net a cost of only $100, but then you've got a backyard-look to it potentially.

So for at or around $2,000-$2,250, you have a well flowing but extremely lean bike. Time to richen it up - jet kit, that's at or over $200 with installation and tuning. Sheesh, that gets us to $2,500 without any Ducati Performance parts! Lets hope it performs better than before.

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Now lets look at the options for "fuelies" - this is a different animal and the option for a DP system is actually more appealing than with the carbies. We'll call DP full system "Option 1" (1), I shall explain:

Simple slipons - most people mistakenly put these on for performance. These are not a performance addition - these are simply a better looking, better sounding pipe. The only quantifiable performance gain that can be had with slipons is a weight savings, which is always a good thing, especially on bikes where the pipes are quite high (like superbikes).

Looking at full systems, some interesting things happen when a set is bolted on alone. Dyno runs show on a stock 1*98, that an Arrow full system nets less hp on the same bike than the stock system. Why? Fueling. Most people throw in high flow filters to increase the flow further - but this increases the air/fuel ratio (a bad thing - 4 strokes do not respond to the ol' adage "the leaner the meaner").

So lets throw some numbers at this, I'll pick on Leo Vince today (no real reason, just easy to find some other #s).

Leo Vince's full system for 1*98 bikes retails for $1,750. What do you get? Just the exhaust. Time to buy high flow airfilter: ~80 bones. For even rounding, because you'll have to include shipping, let's round up $45 for easy math: Total for "flow" parts is $1875.

Now you have a motorcycle that is running dangerously lean, and is almost certainly putting out less power because of an unadjusted fuel system. There are various options for trying to richen up the mixture, many people believe that a Power Commander is a fair option (Option 2). Well, the latest Power Commander retails for $370, so we'll say $400 to your door, and that's with none of the accessories, which are beneficial for tuning (and tuning is necessary), both accessories sum to 680. That's approximately $1000 total. Without the accessories, your total price is approximately $2300 without proper tuning (good luck with that "downloaded" map, - one bike is not necessarily the same as another, especially with regards to climate, elevation, and varying build options). With the Power Commander accessories, you are at $2900! How much is tuning?

How's that DP system looking right now? Should be looking pretty good - its essentially a bolt on for "go" - nets a gain without any fiddling, and can be tuned further to squeeze every hp out of the dollars you've spent.

Remember, that tuning the shit out of your bike, if you burn a hole in your piston, or run it so hot things that are not heat shield melt or short, you'll be pretty screwed for warranty purposes - Magnusson-Moss won't protect you for engine damage where fueling has been altered as the two are directly related. No joke, no free plug, thank goodness for AMS in our area who does more warranty work than any other domestic Ducati shop - asking about # of bikes they do a year, they may very well do more than most other dealerships combined, i shit you not.

So part of that "DP cost" is a bit of piece of mind, right? I think that is easy to agree to - for many owners (lookin' at you, Daxicus) - you want to bolt on and go, you are not interested in constant fiddling. (I, on the other hand, find orgasmic joy in getting into motor stuff and seeing how things work and trying to get the most out of each component).

(3) I think its fair to look at, what I think is a better tuning option than the Power Commander. Enter the MicroTec ECU, here's a superior option for numerous reasons. I got to see the setup and learn a bit about it when I was at Mark's shop in Atlanta, DucShop - lots of tuning options, but at what cost? That's $1095 "on sale" from DucShop. That's a fully programmable unit, which brings us to our next question: Who's going to program it?  At what cost? Is that convenient?

Tuning Option 4, might be the Nemesis ECU. Let's look at another good shop's price on this item: Commonwealth Motorsports sells the ECU for $999, and you need the mounting bracket, which is another $80. So it is roughly the same price as the MicroTec. Still needs some adjustments, of course - it doesn't know what the flow of your bike is, etc. See questions, above, wondering about tuning cost and convenience. There's a real issue with who is trained to work on these and get it right - sure, it can be learned but who's paying to teach a tech to learn some new system when the techs are also learning the newest Ducati systems and bike setups (hello, new MTS1200!)?


So, comparing with a full system, with ECU from Ducati Performance, the cost is only slightly more - considering what you get, and what you would have to get to have a comparable system. Tuning is available for the DP system, but you can "bolt-on" and go without the worries that are associated with self-tuning.

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For the 696, 796, 1100 Monsters, the header pipes are interchangeable, you can run a pipe that is not "through-frame" if you don't like the aesthetic, 'skrat. The design was to set off the look of the Ducati from other manufacturers, and moving the pipe through the frame reduces the vertical "heft" of the motorcycle by condensing the shape. The smaller form factor also offers more ground clearance. I quite like the pipe, though it complicates belt changes quite a bit. If I had one, I may not change it to the "under-pipe" but I would consider ceramic coating it to keep the heat away from the motor and my leg. I'd also make damn sure not to let Jet-Hot send my shit with "signature required".

for some reason, my page kept "timing out" regardless of the internet connection I had on the 796 ride-report thread.

I know some FBers that smiled at the "signature required"
quip

all I know is AMS has done me right in my book [moto]
bank book hurt some, but I chose Ducati, not Triumph
or rice burner.

Both my S4 and S2 run extremely well and have been mapped properly by the guy I trust for that stuff.  The two of the three Ducs I bought had Termis so there's no arguing I "over" paid for the system.  I got slip-ons for my 620 by Remus and it ran like a champ with no tuning needed. 

For my money and my opinion the Termi build is crap.  The welds look piss poor, finish on the carbon is lackluster and ultimately you can't find replacement parts unless you buy another full set (try buying it in pieces like I did, even calling and email Italy several times).  I'm glad other manufacturers are giving them a run for their money because they need to step it up.  Seriously, you pay nearly $3k for a system that looks 10 years old in less than a year?  Put aside the performance gains for a bit of course.    But if we were to talk about that I just don't see spending that kind of MULA for an 8% or so increase.

That's my opinion albeit worthless to most but you opened the door - thanks for pushing me in retard. 

DISCLAIMER:  I AINT NO MECHANIC OR GEAR HEAD!

This thread is too long, I got lost. What was this about again?

Quote from: TresGatos on April 29, 2010, 05:49:53 PM
...
all I know is AMS has done me right in my book [moto]
bank book hurt some, but I chose Ducati, not Triumph
or rice burner.

Was that really necessary? I know I am a guest here, but... really...

I agree... I have a garage full of rice burners that take offense!

Quote from: fastwin on April 29, 2010, 07:04:25 PM
I agree... I have a garage full of rice burners that take offense!

I rode my 98 Suzuki till it was stolen in 08.
If not I would still be on it and not know all yooz guyz.
I'm glad it was stolen thank you very much [moto]

I'll chip in here.  

For my situation for the 848, the Full Termignoni kit was/is a no brainer for what you get.  It sheds about what seems like 10lbs off the bike (lighter cans, removal of butterfly servo, etc)  I have had mine tuned by AMS before and it still runs great, probably needs another tune as its been a few years now.  The cited 8% gain may be a bit generous in my bike's case, but the improvement in the butt-dyno is there.  8% on top of the claimed power for my bike is pretty significant about 10hp + weight loss is sexy combo.

I may be wrong, but I do recall that Remus used to be a supplier for Ducati Performance exhausts.  And the M620 was an open loop exhaust w/ no O2 sensors to deal with as the S*R series.

As with all the things moto related, the only opinion that matters about somebody's bike is their own.  YMMV

I have scanned Amazon for the Cliff's Notes relating to this post.  No luck.  Guess I'll wait for the movie.

hedman tips= 20
kn air fltr= 80
fat duc= 90

pregnant dog runs like a scalded dog!! keep your 2000 dollar (insert exhaust name here) it's a waste of money! little engineering and some patience goes a long way.

btw my factory exhaust cans are stamped remus!

Quote from: bryant8 on April 29, 2010, 07:28:54 PM
I'll chip in here.  

For my situation for the 848, the Full Termignoni kit was/is a no brainer for what you get.  It sheds about what seems like 10lbs off the bike (lighter cans, removal of butterfly servo, etc)  I have had mine tuned by AMS before and it still runs great, probably needs another tune as its been a few years now.  The cited 8% gain may be a bit generous in my bike's case, but the improvement in the butt-dyno is there.  8% on top of the claimed power for my bike is pretty significant about 10hp + weight loss is sexy combo.

I may be wrong, but I do recall that Remus used to be a supplier for Ducati Performance exhausts.  And the M620 was an open loop exhaust w/ no O2 sensors to deal with as the S*R series.

As with all the things moto related, the only opinion that matters about somebody's bike is their own.  YMMV

Yes, Remus used to be a supplier for DP;

Quote from: muskrat on April 29, 2010, 06:43:57 PM
Both my S4 and S2 run extremely well and have been mapped properly by the guy I trust for that stuff.  The two of the three Ducs I bought had Termis so there's no arguing I "over" paid for the system.  I got slip-ons for my 620 by Remus and it ran like a champ with no tuning needed.  

Those are slipons - reread my post. You don't need to tune shit because they don't DO shit. Its just a weightloss, look and sound factor. It ran great because you hadn't really changed anything of substance.

Quote from: muskrat on April 29, 2010, 06:43:57 PMSeriously, you pay nearly $3k for a [full] system that looks 10 years old in less than a year?  Put aside the performance gains for a bit of course.    But if we were to talk about that I just don't see spending that kind of MULA for an 8% or so increase.

DISCLAIMER:  I AINT NO MECHANIC OR GEAR HEAD!

I think you disclaimer is important to note for two reasons: Apples and Oranges - the $3k system is a full system. If you are in it for looks and sound, slip-ons is really about where you should stop. I understand that you personally do not like the udder, so a full system on the S*R series bikes was "necessary" for you.

However, a full system is about trying to extract more power out of the bike, period. Sure you get the looks and sounds too, but the goal is increased flow - that's why the latest crop use 70+mm piping, and equal length headers so each cylinder does the same work. Start looking at other full systems and the price is shockingly equivalent when necessary tuning is added on.

For your two beefs with the termi look, you've got carbon that just needs a simple clear coating and then it is fine, and then the welds. They look a hell of a lot better than Ducati welds, and both work just fine. If you really don't like, grab a grinder and smooth 'em out. The Termi welds are equal in looks to most of the welds on my Sil Headers.

Quote from: calscrazy on April 30, 2010, 03:50:40 AM
hedman tips= 20
kn air fltr= 80
fat duc= 90

pregnant dog runs like a scalded dog!! keep your 2000 dollar (insert exhaust name here) it's a waste of money! little engineering and some patience goes a long way.

btw my factory exhaust cans are stamped remus!

yours may be the most fun set of pipes i've heard yet. that, and boomtubes.

my S4R does not have slip-ons.  I did replace the mid pipe but the headers are the stock ones.  Does Termi make different headers because I know they do for the S4RS but not the S4R.

Do you really expect anyone to spend some $2k or so and then have to finish the product?  NOT. And although I'm no gear head I will tell you, since you presumed, that the reason for the exhaust is power and that much I do know.  I got lucky that both bikes had Termis otherwise I would have bought something to "extract" the power like you say, no matter the brand.  Don't assume it's all about sound because for that I believe the Akra's sound better (and yes I know they don't make them for the S4).  You're not the only one who wants more power from these bikes and Termis aren't the only choice thank God.

now address the part where you can't buy parts for Termis.  But overall I agree with CalsCrazy on the money part.   

I don't think the Akras sound better. They have a great shape for the streetfighter, but I don't think they sound very good at all. I'd rather have Competition Werks, looks better again and has a good sound.

But if you are spending the money on full system stuff, you are off your rocker if you think its "far too much money" for the DP kits for what you get, when you end up paying nearly the same $ to piece together a similar package.