I haven't consciously, maybe unconsciously, exercised since high school.

You guys are working too hard.

Quote from: Monster Dave on January 24, 2011, 04:19:44 PM
It's important to remember that people train by certain methods in order to meet specific goals that they have for themselves. Just as dieting must be customized to the person, so must training programs. What works for me won't work for you and what works for you won't work for the next person (in the same way - meaning you can't carpet bomb 'athelets' with cross fit training and expect them to profit from it without the proper program guidance).

The bottom line is that there are LOTS of ways to get stronger, faster, and leaner. It all boils down to the individual and his/her preferences along with thier level of commitment to said program.  

Which is exactly why I say there is some useful application for CF. If the dangerous exercises are removed from the program and the ballistic movements are not done to failure, it can be a very good program for overall, general fitness.

But don't forget, my original issue in this thread was in regards to CF being reccomended as a good training program for a fighter. If modified correctly, it could be a useful supplement to fight training, although certainly not the most efficient.

Quote from: kopfjäger on January 24, 2011, 05:47:39 PM
Wrong again pitbull, O litters do multiple lifts with light weight to perfect form.

vary rarely do competitive o-lifters do high reps in ballistic lifts, however, when they do it's with, as you said, light weights to train form and never, ever to the point of failure or to the point of form breaking down. Before there is even a hint of form breaking down, the lift is terminated.

That is very different to CF in which trainees are encouraged to take ballistic movements to the point of failure and well beyond the point of good form, not only drastically increasing the risk of injury, but neurologically ingraining bad technique.

Pit,

Not that I'm arguing either fore or against your point, I'm just wondering if you're ranting towards a specific point. I know that you said CF is not the most 'efficient' means of training a fighter - bud did I miss where you suggested what the most effective training is that you've been exposed to yourself or one with which you are familiar?

Y'all need to go back to the SERIOUS fitness thread.

I just did 5 miles on the elliptical.  Wearing bacon and egg socks made all the difference in my form.

^   



Nice 

Quote from: Monster Dave on January 25, 2011, 09:25:27 AM
Pit,

Not that I'm arguing either fore or against your point, I'm just wondering if you're ranting towards a specific point. I know that you said CF is not the most 'efficient' means of training a fighter - bud did I miss where you suggested what the most effective training is that you've been exposed to yourself or one with which you are familiar?

I mentioned the power component and exercises one would want to do to increase posterior chain strength and power in my first post, I believe. In addition to those strength/power movents some ballistic and plyometric movements could be added. In regards to conditioning, most research suggests interval work that would mimic the  work/ratio of the given event in as sports specific fashion, as possible, would be most effiecient. Research also suggests that overall aerobic capacity is neccessary even for anaerobic sports.

The bigger issue, of course, is the vastly superior results attained through a systematic, periodized program that works towards a very specific goal, which crossfit, is by definition, the very opposite of.

Again, CF is a great generalized program, when done safely, to help an individual improve, strength and fitness, but it as a randomized workout program, it is not meant to improve performance quickly and efficiently for high level or elite athletes.

Elliptical, jogging, weights.  Not necessarily in that order or all in the same sitting.  I want to be a little less round.

JM

Mmm... Post-workout shower beers...

Pitbull, what system do you use to train your "Athletes"?

Quote from: kopfjäger on January 25, 2011, 03:22:54 PM
Pitbull, what system do you use to train your "Athletes"?

Well, when I was an active S&C coach for a university football team, we originally used a traditional, western style linear periodization model of micro and macro cycles starting with a strength endurance phase and transitioning through hypertrophy, absolute strength, and finally to a power phase, while simultaneously working through phases of energy systems work with an eye to hitting a conditioning peak at season's beginning.

However, with newer research we found that undulating periodization programs appeared to be a more successful and efficient approach and found that to be true when we incorporated it. We therefore re-structured our macro-cycles around 8 week blocks, targeting all phases simultaneously, with 1 week de-loading and active rest at the end of each 8 weeks.

I'm no longer a paid S&C coach and have worked as a full-time firefighter for the last 17 years. I am, however a certified trainer (not that any certificate is good for anything other than insurance), training and advising fellow firefighters as a peer fitness councelor.

As for systems, you name it, I've tried it (outside of a few obviously inane programs) I've been involved very deeply with health, fitness and performance training for over 25 years and spend a little to a lot of time each and every day reading research and resources that pertain to performance training. I've read every decent training book ever written and been to more performance based seminars and symposiums than any sane individual should ever care to be interested in. I spend each morning trolling pubmed for the latest performance and nutrition research and correspond with a small number of excellent performance experts who are better at interpreting much of the research than I am........although I think I've developed a decent skill for it.

Basically, up until fairly recently, I'm embarrased to admit that performance training and nutrition was about my only major interest and I've spent way too many years engrossed in it completely. Over the last few years I've begun to establish some balance in my life and develop other hobbies and rediscover old interests.........like motorcycles.

i recently finished reading the triathlete's training bible and its pretty similar to the undulating cycles of loading/de-loading that pitbull mentions and rarely includes working to the failure/exhaustion point (only in the case of race testing).  the benefit of working to failure and increased injury risk is far outweighed by the planned incremental improvement and recovery.

another aspect that the ttb stressed was that fitness is improved during rest/recovery and not through your workout.  your body takes damage during your workout and requires rest and proper nutrition to regain that fitness and improve.  i think this is the biggest thing that people overlook.  *edit* not to mention, rest is toughest thing for fitness focused people to do for fear of losing fitness.

Pitbull, if there are CF trainers pushing people to do max O lifts, they are wrong as two boys make the beast with two backsing. The technique and form need to be perfected to a degree long before any of those lifts are performed. Once again we go back to the basics of the system.

You need to be properly trained, as all my "athletes" are before they are allowed to pull any real weight.

Quote from: kopfjäger on January 25, 2011, 09:50:33 PM
Pitbull, if there are CF trainers pushing people to do max O lifts, they are wrong as two boys make the beast with two backsing. The technique and form need to be perfected to a degree long before any of those lifts are performed. Once again we go back to the basics of the system.

You need to be properly trained, as all my "athletes" are before they are allowed to pull any real weight.

Well, originally CF was teaching and training olympic lifts to high reps and to failure which, regardless of technique is going to lead to breakdown as an individual approaches failure. I'm sure they are starting to back off on that somewhat do to the number of lawsuits related to trainees suffering rhadbomyolysis after being pushed far too hard. And before you suggest that it only occurs in week individuals, I see a news feed today mentioning 12 University of Iowa football players being hospitalized for rhabdomyolysis after an intense workout.

Look, lets be clear, the overwhelming majority of CF trainers are truly f*#king horrible and most of the CF gyms are simply throwing  random nonsense at trainneees hoping they get something out of it. If it sounds like it's a bit of a personal issue with CF trainers, I do. A good friend of mine (fellow firefighter) died of a heart attack after his first CF workout 2 weeks ago. He was trained by fellow firefighters who were CF certified. I will now make sure CF has no place, ever in our department. I had issues with it before this incident. Now it's a done deal and I will be quite happy when CF dies the death it eventually will when most of the gyms go out of business. I'm sure it will remain among a small group of devotees who will use it effectively and that is perfectly fine.

As for you, I will take you at your word that you are a good trainer who always teaches the lifts properly, never injures his trainees and never pushes anyone to failure and beyond their ability or fitness level, endangering their health. You however wouuld be among the small minority of CF trainers.

Is this Cross Fit rant over yet? It's been 3 pages now. After having been harangued myself for being too serious in this thread, someone needs to have MrIncredible change the thread title to the "I'm the know it all about Cross Fit training thread"


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