Quote from: Arachnosold1er on October 20, 2011, 12:30:57 PM
So would it be possible to make a map based on the needs of the rear cylinder, then change the placement of the sensor to the front and take another reading, compare the two and make a map that is suitable for both cyl?

Yes, you could do that and arrive at an average result which was pretty damn close for both but absolutely perfect for neither.

Quote from: Arachnosold1er on October 20, 2011, 12:30:57 PMAnd why would the rear cyl need a very different map? Both cyl should have the same bore, stroke, and cam design. The two cylinders should be mapped the same in my mind. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong.  Kinda  .  Think of it as 2x near identical single cylinder engines... operating in different environments with different heating/cooling characteristics and different exhaust headers...

There's plenty of work around here that outlines why independent fuelling maps for each cylinder is considered best practice.  That said, running a single averaged map isnt gonna hurt anything.  Maybe search for "PCV".... "Autotune"...  "advanced dynotune"...  Here's a short discussion about single vs dual mapping on another board  >> http://www.ducati.ms/forums/56-superbikes/22554-dyno-tuning-superbike-regular-advanced-map.html

PCV with a flashed ECU (with the O2 sensors removed) still seems like the ideal solution since you can independently tune both cylinders across the entire RPM range.

Quote from: asherrick on October 20, 2011, 03:08:19 PM
PCV with a flashed ECU (with the O2 sensors removed) still seems like the ideal solution since you can independently tune both cylinders across the entire RPM range.

^^ Second best option IMO.

Fully custom mapped ECU reflash is the ideal solution.  But few of us have access to a Rexxer-type ECU tuning facility.  So for most of us, second best is the best readily available solution, yes.

+ for Bazazz: 
The closed loop seems to be effectively "eliminated" without the need for an ECU reflash.  Tuning throughout the entire rpm range is therefore possible.
- for Bazazz: 
Looks like you can only run a single map over both cylinders (unless you fitted 2x bazazz, one for each cylinder  ).

+ for PCV:
Dual mapping possible. 
- for PCV:
But mapping over the entire rpm range is not possible.... (unless you also have the ECU reflashed to delete the stock closed loop).

Regarding the two cylinders, the software that controls the Z-FI has the ability apply a positive or negative setting to the "other" cylinder, which in my case, would be the front.  One of the posts said something to the degree of "get the mapping you want, then put the sensor in the other cylinder and collect data by running the AFM to see the difference".  That's exactly what I would (and may) do.  When I talked to Bazzaz about which cylinder, they suggested that if I get it mapped to the rear, and then lean out the front by 5%, it was their experience I'd be very close.  That's how I have it set - 5% lean on the front, rear mapped to the AFM collection.  Understand that this is a positive or negative front cylinder influence based on, in my case, the rear cylinder map.  It's not a dedicated map for the front cylinder, but rather a %age change based on the rear cylinder map.

For what it's worth, just like the "other cylinder" the software also gives you the ability to apply a positive or negative setting to each gear if necessary.

I suggest that you go to the Bazzaz website and download the software.  You can run it without a Bazzaz system.  You can load up a fuel map and "turn all the knobs" - I'm sure you'll better understand what I'm saying if you do.  They also have some great online videos that do an excellent job of explaining how to collect and tweak the software that was really helpful.

Hope that helps.

Quote from: RLSinOP on October 20, 2011, 06:22:54 PM
Regarding the two cylinders, the software that controls the Z-FI has the ability apply a positive or negative setting to the "other" cylinder, which in my case, would be the front.  One of the posts said something to the degree of "get the mapping you want, then put the sensor in the other cylinder and collect data by running the AFM to see the difference".  That's exactly what I would (and may) do.  When I talked to Bazzaz about which cylinder, they suggested that if I get it mapped to the rear, and then lean out the front by 5%, it was their experience I'd be very close.  That's how I have it set - 5% lean on the front, rear mapped to the AFM collection.  Understand that this is a positive or negative front cylinder influence based on, in my case, the rear cylinder map.  It's not a dedicated map for the front cylinder, but rather a %age change based on the rear cylinder map.

Thats pretty much what I had in mind. I would'nt use a set percentage to modify the "other" cylinder by, but rather use real data by moving the sensor to the other cyl and take a reading.

Quote from: ungeheuer on October 20, 2011, 02:35:42 PM
Yes, you could do that and arrive at an average result which was pretty damn close for both but absolutely perfect for neither.
You're wrong.  Kinda  .  Think of it as 2x near identical single cylinder engines... operating in different environments with different heating/cooling characteristics and different exhaust headers...

Yeah, I forgot to take into consideration temp and exhaust. I am used to tuning cars where both banks are running nearly the same. I don't think that you can ever get a map "perfect". Outside air temp, humidity, altitude and other conditions are constantly changing and have a big effect on how your engine performs. I am not racing, so 1/10th of a HP makes no difference to me. That being said, If I can get "pretty damn close" to perfect I would be happy. I think that the Bazzaz system is looking like a great alternative to PCV. Possibly even better than. Seems to be a cheaper option too.

< big honkin' bookmark! >

Thank you, I like it!! As mentioned earlier it was recommended to me by someone with a lot more street riding experience than myself. Now, if only you can get yours set up and store the map and share? lol!! I won't be getting the AFM, unless...someone lends me one, hehehe. Ciao

I wonder if you can eliminate the POS flapper motor using Bazzaz? That would be awesome. I think I have decided that the Bazzaz will be my next mod. I just dropped the hammer on some Arrows so I will have to work a little OT to make my next purchase.

Smart fella that designer and his engineers!! Especially with what they have done with the TC unit!!

Quote from: Arachnosold1er on October 23, 2011, 07:26:16 PM
I wonder if you can eliminate the POS flapper motor using Bazzaz? That would be awesome. I think I have decided that the Bazzaz will be my next mod. I just dropped the hammer on some Arrows so I will have to work a little OT to make my next purchase.

you can already get rid of it with a duc.ee.  but you'll need to get a 696 midpipe to get rid of the whole thing.

Yeah, I already know about the Duc-E.E. But, It would be nice to not need it. Just one more thing to cram under the seat along with the Bazzaz unit.

Duc.ee is smaller than a tic-tac box...

The Bazzaz Z-FI unit actually fit's right on top of the ECU, under the gas tank.  Based on the wiring harness provided, that's the only place you can put it.  You actually have to take the tank panels off, and remove the gas tank to install the unit.  A word of advice - when I removed the gas tank, I didn't actually remove the fuel lines and laid the tank sideways on the frame.  The metal tabs the hold down the tank scratched up my lovely red frame.  I had to touch that up with the right color of paint, which is another discussion thread all together.  If you're not going to completely remove the tank, I highly suggest putting a towel or blanket under the tank while you work - it's got some nasty metal edges looking for virgin red paint.

As for the Z-AFM unit, I have it located on the right side of the bike zip-tied to the Z-FI wiring harness behind the frame - I can take a pic if necessary.  You can't put it in the tool tray due to wiring harness connections.

Bump, to check if any other Monster tamers have gone down the Bazzaz route to liven up their beasts?  I am sitting on the fence still between this, a custom reflash, and the dynojet..??

Don't have any local tuners in Singapore so this still looks the best and most cost effective way...  Any 1100 riders able to give their thoughts?

Just got of speaking with Bazzaz and   no system available for the 08-2010 1100... 😡 They have 696/796/Evo, but nought for the best of the bunch.😢
If they have enough people request apparently they will start working, so if anybody knows a good spammer point them to Bazzaz.com (kidding!!)

Any thoughts on the Rexxer as a tuner? or is it just to reflash? I couldn't find much on that in English that is current, and while I emailed with Chris at Daniele-moto would like a users opinion... I guess DynoJet is the only other option?