Please help me understand the street mentality

[MTBryan]

OK, something has been bugging me and I have to figure it out.
It has to do with street riding in general.

I have been on street bikes for over 30 years (Ducati since early 2001). But most of my experience in fun has been on dirt bikes. On a dirt bike you can wheelie, you can go 110 mph through the trees, you can just plain go crazy, and only your bones are at risk (depending on the area). When riding responsibly, meaning with regards to other riders, you won't get a ticket, get thrown in jail, or even get dirty looks. And yes, I can do all the crazy things in the dirt, and still be riding responsibly.

I have always felt I ride a little too fast on the street. I rarely go the speed limit , and I occasionally use the power of my bike to get around cars. And I am usually the passer, not the passee (is that a word?) However, I have only had 1 ticket on a street bike ever (speed trap about 10 years ago) and have never laid down a bike. Everyone says it's only a matter of time before I crash. But that has been the story since I have been riding. Yes, I have NEVER crashed on the street. Of course, I have crashed plenty of times on my dirt bike. 

Now that I live in Nashville (just moved from Denver), the roads are winding, buff and fun! Generally I try and keep my speed to within 10 or 15 mph over the limit. Occasionally I will go a little higher when I feel it is safe to do so. But here is my confusion:

How fast are people on this board really going on the street? I keep reading stories about crashing, putting their knees down in the turns, etc. Do people really ride like this, or over their heads on the street that often?

Last evening I was driving down an awesome road in the country near my house. Few cars, no other bikes, certainly no police, and going as fast as I dare go considering I was on new terrain, maybe 20 mph or so over the limit in places tops, but usually around 10 over. I wasn't in risk of ditching my bike. In fact, I dare say, I am completely 100% confident in my abilities in the situations I encounter, and after 30 years know I will come home from such a ride intact. I just can't see letting crazy loose in a corner and dragging a knee where you can't see around the other side for traffic, don't know what lays on the surface (gravel, grass clippings, cow crap), don't know the radius of the turn, etc.

So, I called an old Colorado riding buddy after my ride last night and he said, 'Well Bryan, you not ever crashing on the street either means you are really an awesome rider, or really wimpy and slow".

So, if I am that slow, are people really riding local roads at 40, 50 mph over the limit on the back-roads and putting the knee down in turns that you haven't ridden before?

I guess when I feel the need to completely let loose on the street bike (like I used to in the dirt), the last place I would want to do it is on public roads. Driving down the back roads, I am spending so much concentration looking for nasties on the road, cows around the corners, other cars, police, etc., I just don't feel I am even close to really letting loose. And, on roads with a speed limit of around 40 to 45 mph, really pushing the pace would be more like in the 100 mph range, and that is a night in jail waiting to happen (and cancelled insurance). The track would be much more fulfilling for really pushing the bike.

So, are people really riding nutty fast on the street? Or is my idea of nutty fast different than others?
(I don't consider 20 mph over the limit nutty fast)

Cheers from Music City,
Bryan...

[Rufus120]

I don't know about dragging ones knee, but I have noticed that no one goes the speed limit.  As a person new to motorcycles I have been taking this slow so I don't get myself into trouble.   Speed limit or below obeying all the rules etc.  I've noticed that no one around me is going the speed limit, ever really.  I get passed all the time like I'm not moving.  I get passed by other bikes, cars, semi trucks.  On back roads when I'm going the speed limit cars might stack up two or three behind me gunning to try and get around.  I usually pull over some where since I'm not into people riding my ass.  I am going the speed limit too. 
I can't afford to get into any trouble and I fell that gets me into another form of trouble, being  "in the way."  Which to me on a bike is almost more scary than the police.  I don't have the skill yet to even put myself in the position you are talking about, but in my right mind I can't really see that working out for someone in the long run.  To me it's more of a numbers game than anything and sooner or later those numbers are going to catch up to whom ever is pushing things all the time.  It would really suck to have you life destroyed/ended because of some cow sh*t.......


Not a bike but check out what happened to this poor sob when he pushed things too far.
http://jalopnik.com/5043902/lamborghini-murcielago-in-deadly-accident-on-californias-101-obliterated-almost-beyond-recognition

[Bbrent]

Personally I've never seen anyone dragging knees on the streets. I think that kind of mentality should be reserved for the track under a controlled environment. There are so many variables on the street that make me ride rather defensively. But the main reason I don't push it too much on the streets is my family.

[the_Journeyman]

My speed limit is usually defined by danger, traffic, road type, road layout etc.  On a stretch of empty pavement I know well, I tend to scoot along.  In-town I stick close to posted limits.  I also do in areas where there are lots of driveways & roads intersecting the road I'm riding.  There's  *usually* enough reserve for me to dodge an obstacle or slow enough to turn a crash into a minor tip-over.

JM

[CDawg]

How fast are people on this board really going on the street? I keep reading stories about crashing, putting their knees down in the turns, etc. Do people really ride like this, or over their heads on the street that often?

Some people do, others refer to those who do as squids...I don't think any rider should put other people around them at risk...

So, I called an old Colorado riding buddy after my ride last night and he said, 'Well Bryan, you not ever crashing on the street either means you are really an awesome rider, or really wimpy and slow".

That's a false dichotomy.  You don't have to be going fast to crash...you can be going speed limit and not paying attention as still crash.

I guess when I feel the need to completely let loose on the street bike (like I used to in the dirt), the last place I would want to do it is on public roads. Driving down the back roads, I am spending so much concentration looking for nasties on the road, cows around the corners, other cars, police, etc., I just don't feel I am even close to really letting loose. And, on roads with a speed limit of around 40 to 45 mph, really pushing the pace would be more like in the 100 mph range, and that is a night in jail waiting to happen (and cancelled insurance). The track would be much more fulfilling for really pushing the bike.

So, are people really riding nutty fast on the street? Or is my idea of nutty fast different than others?
(I don't consider 20 mph over the limit nutty fast)

I found this a good read and helpful to put "speed" in perspective...I am a firm believer that it take no skill to go 100+ mph in a flat freeway.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=117.0

[jakem696]

Personally I've never seen anyone dragging knees on the streets. I think that kind of mentality should be reserved for the track under a controlled environment. There are so many variables on the street that make me ride rather defensively. But the main reason I don't push it too much on the streets is my family.


I, too, dont feel the need speed or to go fast or do crazy sh*t on the the stereet or highway.  I love my skin intack and my body in one piece.
I got too much to live for.

Jake

[silentbob]

Strangely enough since I have been riding on the track my street riding has actually slowed down. 

As for knee draging on the street.  Most people I see doing it are riding relatively slow for the turn and hanging way too far off the bike.  They usually are crosed up with their head and shoulders on the inside of the turn and their hips and legs as far to the outside as possible.  I have passed these guys in turns with my knee no where near the pavement while they are dragging and going slow.  I don't drag a knee until the bike is at 50 degrees lean and I don't see many people on the street running that fast.  I very rarely drag on the street because I am pretty close to the limit at that point.

[myssrhl]

Too many road hazards as you stated... I see alot of sand, hay, and weird stuff like bricks, ladders and of course truck tire treads...

When asked "how fast do you ride?"

I say "as fast as I want to hit a deer at"

[scienceiscool]

dragging knee on the street is reckless and irresponsible, imo.  i ride maybe 15-20 over on twisty roads, fast enough to be fun and get a decent lean but still have that 10% leftover in case something is waiting around a blind corner.  i think i have hit my limit as far as street riding goes - meaning, i have the skill to take the corners faster, but i'm not comfortable doing it somewhere there could be gravel, deer, opposing traffic, etc - i need a track now.

and agreed with above poster about "dragging knee" literally - it's not so much a function of speed as body position and riding style.

[MTBryan]

That's what I am talking about everyone! Sounds like I am on the same page as everyone else (so far). Maybe I'm thinking of the 'squids' when seeing what other street bikers do on public roads. I am still trying to learn the street slang.

And true, anyone can twist the throttle and go 100+ mph in a straight line.

I guess I am trying to balance:
1) Fun
2) Don't Crash
3) Don't make anyone else crash
4) Don't get a ticket - can't take any more insurance increases
5) Don't get thrown in jail
6) Try not to piss other motorists off, although that isn't always within my control

I guess that's what comes with age. In my earlier years, some of those were of a lower priority.

And you are right CDawg, you DON'T have to be going fast to crash, or get a ticket. All the tickets I've had have been when I am just cruising along (in my car or truck), listening to the radio, and chillin. When I am driving faster or more aggressively, I am paying much more attention, looking for problems, very defensive, and looking for the law. Obviously, someone driving UNDER the speed limit, talking on the phone, having a big gulp, is much more of a danger than someone with skill that is tuned into his/her surroundings. Unfortunately, usually just the speeder gets the ticket. Not the dummy.

I like the 'How fast do you ride' response!

[ducpenguin]

+1...I think on roads with less traffic and the ability to be safe, 15-20 over is fine...
Just don't do 40....ouch! 

[EvilSteve]

I find it odd that, as motorcyclists, we still equate knee dragging with ridiculous speeds. You can knee drag at 20-30 mph depending on the radius of the corner. Most of my knee dragging (don't get to go to the track anywhere near as much as I'd like) happens in a parking lot with no one around and nothing to damage.

I think of it this way, if I've never practiced leaning that hard, how will I do when I *need* to? We all talk about looking through a corner & leaning when we run wide but don't you think it's better to not make an emergency your first attempt? I'm not condoning knee dragging wherever, just making a point.

Speed wise, I'm pretty chilled until I know a road really well (like where all the pot holes are) and make a first pass.

YMMV

[Spidey]

It's hard to tell how fast people are riding unless you actually ride with them.  There are a coupla variables that make it hard to discuss online.

1)  Variations in speed limits for road conditions.  I have been to parts of the country or other countries where the speed limits for twisties are way different than here in Northern CA.  So, for someone to say "I'm 20 over speed limit" doesn't mean that much.

2)  There is a huge variation in the speeds for yellow warning signs.  I know that if I get a 15 or 20mph yellow sign around here, it's gonna be TIGHT.  I've seen other places where they put up 15 mph or 20 mph for turns that would otherwise get a 30 or 35mph yellow sign here.  Someone was just talking to me about taking 35 mph turns at triple digit speeds.  I think that'd be pretty much impossible here.

3)  People cannot accurately describe their riding online.  Even if they're not bragging or whipping out their e-penis, the description rarely matches the reality. 

4)  You often don't know people's riding experience.  For example, some use dragging hard parts as an indicator of speed.  But a new rider with little experience can drag hard parts pretty easily by pushing the bike down or taking stupid lines or having the suspension way off.  If a racer, hanging off like a monkey and taking smart, clean lines drags hard parts, that's a whole different story. 

That said, if you put a knee down on a street (without hanging off like a monkey and purposely trying), you're going too fast.  My street pace is prolly 50% of my track pace (who really knows -- I'm describing it on the internet (see # 3), but with a whole buncha stupid moves mixed in for shits and giggles.  I've been surprised at how at the painfully slow street pace of some online loudmouths and at the blazing (sometime stupid) speed of others.  There's no rhyme or reason.  It's why I want to ride with a group I know, who rides at a pace that I think of as fast, comfortable and safe.  The really fast, suck-your-balls-into-your-body riding is for the track.

[MTBryan]

Good point about different speed limits in different areas. Here in Tennessee, it seems like they post limits WAY low for conditions. So, 20 over is easy to do. The Natchez Trace is posted at 40, and it would be easy to go 100 in places and 70 around corners.
Over the weekend, I was in Northern Mississippi visiting some relatives of my wife's. I was driving her car on some back roads on Sunday that were very tight, blind corners, and lots of driveways. They speed limit was 55 mph! I couldn't believe it! Some of the corners I couldn't maintain 55 unless I really put on the G's, and withstood a barrage of crap from my beloved wife about going too fast. Most cars were going around 35 mph.

And good point about knowing the road. I knew highway 285 out of Denver like the back of my hand. Every turn, bump and pothole. The turns were great at speed. I could RIP that baby up. But on a new road out here, I am like a blue haired grand mama on Sunday.

[Evil_Ductator]

sounds like you need a track day!!