GUN STUFF

[cokey]

True Alaskas gun laws are basically nill?

[Monsterlover]

Posting anything with the word "law" in it is generally a bad idea.

Someone may answer via pm, but (i hope) probably not in the thread itself.

I like the unlocked version of this thread better than the locked, worthless unusable version. . .

[DRKWNG]

I like the unlocked version of this thread better than the locked, worthless unusable version. . .

This.

[fastwin]

Been there, accidentally done that. Lesson learned. Let's move on. No "L" word OK? Back to bears and guns.

[zach (Slag)]

We go to Ouray Colorado every year, and I always bring a rifle and a revolver.  There is a lot of bear activity there.  A woman was mauled a few miles from us in 2010.  Unfortunately I cannot always have a rifle at the ready while I am there, hence the need for a high power pistol.  The 44 is pretty damn cumbersome, and the 460 looks like it might fill the niche that I need it to. 

[WarrenJ]

A pic of some of the 125 grain bullets I made for Mr. Rowland.  We did achieve 2000 fps with them.  I've shot the Rowland a bit and IMHO it makes the gun work too hard with any weight bullet  .  The 1911 was designed around a fairly low pressure round and cheating the system with an extremely heavy recoil spring, comp and heavy wall cases just to squeak inside safe pressures is sort of spooky.  You really feel the gun slamming when shooting it .  Makes me nervous - and I've done some pretty extreme things with guns and reloading - maybe I'm just getting cautious in my old age.

A 4" 44 loaded with 300 - 320 hard cast bullets and a ripping load of H110 or LilGun is a far better piece of equipment for big critters you need to stop.

The one thing 200 - 230 grain 45 bullets are really bad at is penetration on game.  I've killed a deer and some other critters with a 45 ACP and penetration is suprisingly shallow.  Sectional density (bullets long in relation to their diameter) is what you need when shooting dangerous game.  This is especially true when you don't have a lot of velocity (kinetic energy) to play with.  Long heavy bullets, even at relatively low velocities will penetrate and bust bones far better than a shorter, lighter bullet at higher velocity.

[Monsterlover]

So what I'm reading here is there's no replacement for displacement.

[WarrenJ]

44 magnums with long heavy bullets get the job done pretty well.  The factory 240's are marginal in my opinion.  I make a 295 grain jacketed hollowpoint that has worked well for people even on some medium African game.  The 300 - 320 grain hard cast gas check bullets with a big wide blunt nose profile are what you want for larger dangerous critters.  They don't stop, don't come apart and make good leaks on both sides and bust anything in between.  You cannot rely on a lighter, shorter, expanding bullet at pistol velocities to get the job done.  People stopping is one thing, but larger, dangerous game is quite another.

If weight is a problem, the Smith 329 Scandium frame 44 might be an option.  They are very light and pretty accurate, but with any full load they are quite punishing.  I came up with a load pushing a LBT 320 grain bullet at about 1000 out of it.  It was just on the ragged edge of painful but still gave great penetration.  16" lever action 44 carbines are also pretty nice for that job.  They are very light, handy and easier to shoot under stress - just not quite as convenient as a revolver on your hip.

[cokey]

Ah yes forgot boot the L word...   

[zarn02]

â†'

[DRKWNG]

Yep, if memory serves correctly, the best way to drop said bear is to take out the shoulder blades, as that will reduce their "go" by 50% and all of their steerage.  No point going for a head shot, unless you're packing a 20mm anti-material weapon, as the round will likely deflect off the skull.

[WarrenJ]

I shot mine through both front shoulders - it went 18" straight down.  Breaking important bones is the best way to deal with larger or dangerous game.  10 yards with a 250 grain 35 Whelen.

I wouldn't have a lot of qualms about head pounding a bear if it was close as long as I had a heavy bullet with good sectional density.  You do have to remember to aim a bit lower, like on the tip of the nose because a bear's skull is so flat on top. 

[zach (Slag)]

Thanks for the inside scoop on the 460  Looks like I should reconsider.  Are there any alternate calibers that you would recommend for the 1911? My first choice was 10mm. 

[triangleforge]

AM & I spent the weekend at a backcountry yurt a few miles walk (when we booked it in September it was supposed to be ski/snowshoe trip, but the snow had other plans) into the San Francisco Peaks near Flagstaff.

A bit after we'd gone to sleep Friday night, we were both awakened by the sound of handgun fire off in the distance -- seven shots in rapid succession, a couple of minutes pause, then another seven as fast as the shooter could pull the trigger. Most any fire ring within walking distance of a dirt road around here is surrounded with a carpet of spent brass, shotgun hulls and broken liquor bottles, so it was pretty easy to picture what was going on.

She was unnerved and wanted to call someone, but the sound was was pretty far away; I rolled over half asleep and told her "honey, seven shots means it's probably a 1911. With the price of .45 ACP, there's no way he can afford to keep that up for long." Sure enough, the night got quiet about ten minutes later.

[WarrenJ]

I tried a huge variety of options trying to make my 1911 into an effective field pistol.  They are a solid self defense handgun and a great competition pistol but I could find very little that gave adequate penetration with a heavy enough bullet to be effective as a short range medium game gun.  I can't say how many possums and woodchucks I shot with 230 grain Federal Hydrashocks that required several shots to seal the deal - much less a bear.

I used to shoot 255 grain hardcast for bowling pins in the 1911 but you need to run heavy springs and have to do a bit if fiddling around to get them to feed properly.  The main problem with the 1911 as a field gun is that you are limited in overall length by the magazine from using a long enough bullet to give effective penetration on game.

The 10mm is a fantastic cartridge held back by a lack of semi auto pistols that can handle the battering.  The best to my understanding (no first hand experience) is the 10mm Witness Hunter.  Perhaps a Glock with a high quality aftermarket barrel with a minimum feed ramp would be good.  A couple of outfits make high quality 6" 10mm barrels for Glocks.  Load the Speer 180 or 200 TMJ bullets.  In testing we have done with 40 cal bullets at 10mm velocities, the 180 and 200 grain fmj bullets gave great penetration compared to other typical semi-auto compatible pistol bullets.

Set up some empirical testing on your own and get some first hand knowledge on what these cartridges and loads will actually do in your guns and senarios.  A simple test is to line up water filled milk jugs and see how many your load will penetrate.  Another test I do for comparison purposes is to use 1/2" MDF boards in a holder 1" apart and check penetration.  It's tough to draw comparisons between mdf and tissue but at least you can get an apples to apples comparison between loads.   The best media I have used is bentonite squished into a 5 gallon bucket.  It works well but is REAL messy.  Paper ballistics will only tell you so much - go shoot some stuff and get a real feel for what is happening.  Remember  "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics"