GUN STUFF

[triangleforge]

What i know about .45-70 comes from shooting a few dozen low-powered blackpowder handloads & one long conversation in a local gunshop with a guy who REALLY wanted to sell me a new lever action Marlin in that caliber. One thing I remember from that conversation is that there were three general ranges of pressures loaded in that caliber - low pressure rounds for antiques like yours and reproductions, "Marlin" rounds at medium pressures, and hot rounds for the Ruger No. 1.

[The Bacon Junkie]

I've seen 325 grain rounds and 405 grain "Cowboy Loads"

I always thought the "Cowboy Loads" were a lower pressure, but the numbers seem higher...

Is there something I'm misinterpreting?

I think I'm just confused...

Is "Smokeless" powder a higher pressure than black powder?  Or is black powder more potent, so there's more powder used in a smokeless cartridge?  etc...

[zarn02]

Is "Smokeless" powder a higher pressure than black powder?  Or is black powder more potent, so there's more powder used in a smokeless cartridge?  etc...

Smokeless powder is significantly more potent than black powder.

[ducpainter]

Thanks T-forge...

I remember the gunsmith telling me I needed to shoot lower pressure stuff.  I thought that's what the "Cowboy Loads" were... 

I only have the shells that are in the pic I posted, so either way, I'll have to buy ammo so I have brass to reload, right? 

This is all still pretty new to me, so I really appreciate all the info everyone has been posting.

The old trapdoor models have their own set of reloading data with reduced pressures.

In the AA manual pressures are kept below 18K psi.

I would be careful with any factory ammo. Know the pressure.

[The Bacon Junkie]

Smokeless powder is significantly more potent than black powder.

Okay, I know I'm showing my ignorance here, but does that mean a 405 grain black powder load is less powerful than a 325 grain smokeless load?

My learning curve is near vertical, it seems...  

The old trapdoor models have their own set of reloading data with reduced pressures.

In the AA manual pressures are kept below 18K psi.

I would be careful with any factory ammo. Know the pressure.

Okay, so...  Save the brass?   

[ducatiz]

Edward Wilks - Daughter Miriam: Reverse Evolution of a Shooter

Good God, he's creating a killing machine!

[ducpainter]

Okay, I know I'm showing my ignorance here, but does that mean a 405 grain black powder load is less powerful than a 325 grain smokeless load?

My learning curve is near vertical, it seems...  

Okay, so...  Save the brass?   

not necessarily.

you have to look at the data.

just save the brass.

[The Bacon Junkie]

not necessarily.

you have to look at the data.

just save the brass.

btw...

You wouldn't have any idea who may have put "Save The Brass" in my sig line, would you?

[ducpainter]

who...

me?

[The Bacon Junkie]

who...

me?

[cokey]

That's awesome. I could only hope my daughter is level headed enough to do that..  I just need more training my self first.. 

On another note, never seen a keltec pistol before.. was watching hickock45 and a pmr30..  damn thing looks like a toy..  with a 30 round capacity and basicly no recoil  seems quite usable. Any thoughts on the. 22 magnum rounds?

Seems like it would be good for my wife just would like to know if that round you think has enough stopping power..

[ducatiz]

On another note, never seen a keltec pistol before.. was watching hickock45 and a pmr30..  damn thing looks like a toy..  with a 30 round capacity and basicly no recoil  seems quite usable. Any thoughts on the. 22 magnum rounds?

Seems like it would be good for my wife just would like to know if that round you think has enough stopping power..

KelTecs are decently designed pistols using "frugal" components.  They are not high end guns, but they have proven to be reliable despite being inexpensive. 

The PMR30 is kind of a toy. 22magnum is not a cheap caliber.  I would not buy any 22mag pistol unless it had a 22LR conversion kit included.  I think they were supposed to offer one for the PMR30, but I don't know if they have made it yet.  30 round 22LR pistol?  Very cool.

22mag as a defense round?  I'd have to say only if that's the biggest you can handle. Even with hollow points you are talking about a 35-45 grain projectile.  35 grains is a little more than 2 grams, and for comparison, a typical paperclip weighs about 1.5 grams, so you are talking about lobbing a little less than 2 paperclips.

[triangleforge]

Okay, I know I'm showing my ignorance here, but does that mean a 405 grain black powder load is less powerful than a 325 grain smokeless load?

My learning curve is near vertical, it seems...  

Okay, so...  Save the brass?   

One point of clarification - "grains" are used as a measure of weight for both powder AND for bullet, and the above weights you list simply have to be bullet weights, not powder weights - if'n you're going to put 400 grains of powder in the case, make sure I'm standing a county or two away before you pull the trigger. 

Here's a good site with lots of numbers about the .45-70 round, which happily confirmed my dodgy memory about the three general "ranges" of case pressures for different types of guns:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/45-70Govt

And another with a good description of the cartridge in the days when your rifle was the tool of choice for market hunters looking to stack up as many buffalo hides as possible; note that he says the standard charge was 70 grains of blackpowder behind a 405 grain bullet:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buffalo_cartridges.htm

Another site with reloading data for the cartridge, along with recommendations about what type of gun to use with what - but note that the powder measures he gives are for smokeless powder and so are much smaller than the 70 grains of blackpowder listed above:

http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

Finally, here's a company that might be worth a phone call; they stock .45-70 loaded with GOEX blackpowder and probably could offer some good advice about what would work with your rifle:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partList.aspx?catID=2&subID=190&styleID=922

For comparison, for hunting loads in a .50 cal blackpowder rifle (that's where most all of my very limited experience lies) I use mostly 385 grain conical bullets and shoot a lot in the off season to figure out the powder charge that gives me the best grouping at the distances I expect to shoot, usually using 100 grains of blackpowder or pyrodex as a starting point and fiddling in a range of plus or minus ten grains in order to get the gun to group nicely.

As for "cowboy" rounds, a quick perusal would indicate that they tend to be lower-pressure cartridges, but I wouldn't trust it as a guarantee of that fact - it's worth asking first about how they're loaded - blackpowder vs. smokeless, how much pressure, etc.

One question for those who know more than me: I realize it's way more complicated than this, but can muzzle velocity (which is almost always listed for commercial ammo) be used as very rough analog for case pressure (which almost never is)? Maybe if you compare them for identical bullet weights?

Finally, the case-crimping tool mentioned in the reviews of the Lee reloading kit probably isn't necessary with your single-shot rifle - it's needed for guns like the Marlin lever actions that have a tubular magazine that line up cartridges nose to tail under spring pressure. Without crimping, I'd imagine you run the risk of pushing the bullet deeper in the case, but that's not an issue for you. You would want to add some of the other tools mentioned there, especially cleaning tools if you're loading blackpowder which burns dirty. You might want a case-flaring tool, but I don't know - if you're not crimping the cases, do you need to flare them?

(Disclosure: I started to send this as a PM, but realized that ignorance and misinformation on my part - which I have in apparently limitless supply - could be dangerous, so this was better exposed to light & any necessary criticism.)

[fastwin]

.22mag is a good little round but expensive for what it is. I'd say no to self defense. But plinking is just as fun and a lot cheaper with regular .22lr.

My friend has a nice bolt rifle in .22mag (maybe a CZ??, can't remember) that he uses for wild turkey hunting and general varmit stuff. It's scoped and he just pops the gobblers in the head. DRT. Dead Right There. And no carcass damage.

[cokey]

Yea it wouldn't be for me but the wife..  she has hand/wrist problems and with the lighter but larger round guns, I see they recoil a lot..