Recurring ignition coils error code P0351 on both coils/circuits (S2R1K)

[czen]

You explained well, your results just don't make any sense to me.  0 is the reading for no resistance.  This would mean no spark.  With the wire and cap you should be reading at least 4.5K ohms since that is the resistance of the cap. 

I agree, it's very odd; and I've made sure to check and re-check; I'm not doing something dumb like forgetting to switch the meter to 20K, etc. It's not just odd that the bike is running (or at least it was ... see my post re stalling out) but also that BOTH coils give this result.

Im speculating here, but I wondered if it may be 1 of 2 things: Beru coils are somehow different; OR, the coils were on their way out, and I was getting a spark only because the coils' behaviour under load is different from a bench test ... in other words, possible it was providing spark even though test shows "zero" Ohms on secondary. I realize this is not likely, but I've no idea.

Here's another thing: I'm not convinced the bike has as much power as it should. People talk about these bikes like they have crazy mad power, that they can lift the front wheel off the ground if they crank the throttle hard enough on first or second gear. Now, don't get me wrong, I have zero interest in doing wheelies, but I wanted to test this and could not duplicate. (Mind you, I have recently installed a G2 "throttle tamer" for better control, but this should not make a difference at higher RPMs and anyway, I could not do it before either.)

Thanks again!

[czen]

I just wrote to Beru again; let' see if I get a response this time.

If anyone has these coils on their bike (they're on more than one model), if convenient, please check them out with a multimeter.

The Ducati OEM part number is 38040101C and the Beru part number is ZS056.

Many thanks!

[Speeddog]

Dual-output coil is wired differently than one might think:



Primary and secondary do not share any circuits.

I've checked a coil from a DS1000:
Primary resistance is 0.9 ohm.
Secondary resistance is 16.2k ohm.

[czen]

Dual-output coil is wired differently than one might think:



Primary and secondary do not share any circuits.

I've checked a coil from a DS1000:
Primary resistance is 0.9 ohm.
Secondary resistance is 16.2k ohm.

Perfect! Thanks a bunch! That explains it: unlike other coils, the reading is not taken from point "A" to point "B" (per diagram above), but each point independently ... now my results make sense, if I've understood you correctly.

Thanks again for responding!

[czen]

So I did a bit more reading on "dual output" coils, and thought I'd post this in addition to the above response by Speedog, in case it is of use to someone: if you attempt to test these specific Beru coils by taking a reading between the primary and secondary coils (between points A and B in the photo I posted) you are actually supposed to get a reading of infinite resistance. If you get anything else, the coils are bad. So actually, what was previously seemed odd to me makes sense: the coils are good, they're not supposed to have a definitive resistance value (Ohms) when tested that way. (I also mixed up infinite with zero, sorry!)

So the way to test them is to read the primary and secondary coils (points A and B in the photo) individually, and then also the caps and look for some definite value (a low value of up to 1 or maybe 2 for the primary, and much higher value in the teen thousands for secondary); then test between primary and secondary and look for infinite resistance.

The reason i was confused about this is because the instructions I read and watched on how to test coils were about a different type of coil.

At least: I hope I have it right this time.

Good discussion here: http://xs650temp.proboards.com/thread/16595/test-coil

Many thanks again for helping clarify this Speeddog.

[Howie]

New to me too.

[SwiftTone]

So did you ever fix the issue with the error codes in the coils?

[czen]

So did you ever fix the issue with the error codes in the coils?

Just getting into the new season now, so I can't say with 100% certainty, but my guess is that the error codes for the coil circuits came up due to bike stalling out, so more as a symptom of an underlying problem rather than the problem in itself. In other words, I need to make sure I resolve the stalling out issue - that's the main thing.

So what is/was causing the stalling? A few different things at once: corrosion in the wire harness causing power cut to coils; possible Idle Air Control valve (or "stepper motor") problem; or possibly a Crank Position Shaft sensor malfunction because I was getting a CPS error code also ... or maybe something else entirely, like maybe the fuel pump (but those are the most likely culprits). 

I have replaced the entire/complete wire harness with a new one (due to corrosion in more than one place), installed newer (still used, but newer than mine) ignition coils, new TPS, also installed Magnecor coil cables, new relays, new spark plugs, etc. ...  and bike is in the shop where they are trying to narrow down the exact cause of the random stalling/surging problems I've been having ... I'll try to post a response once we figure out if it's an IAC or CPS problem.

Some of the stuff I replaced was probably going overboard, but I learned bike had sat for a long time probably outdoors so I wanted to make sure this got truly resolved.

If, after all that, and after a Ducati trained mechanic has looked at it, I still get those error codes ... well then     

[SwiftTone]

Thanks for the reply.  I am chasing an issue where at full throttle the bike will lose power as if it was choking  at 6500rpm. At 3/4 throttle, it'll Rev to red line with no issues.

I am getting error codes p0351 and p0352 for both ignition coils.

Replaced the fuel filter, fuel system pressure is correct,  did the valves.

Tested the TPS and it reads 0.39V at closed throttle and 4.20V and fully open. Is this the same reading you got as well? I also noticed that at closed throttle it reads as 3.1-3.2 degrees and 85 degrees fully open. Normal?

[czen]

Thanks for the reply.  I am chasing an issue where at full throttle the bike will lose power as if it was choking  at 6500rpm. At 3/4 throttle, it'll Rev to red line with no issues.

Replaced the fuel filter, fuel system pressure is correct,  did the valves.

Tested the TPS and it reads 0.39V at closed throttle and 4.20V and fully open. Is this the same reading you got as well? I also noticed that at closed throttle it reads as 3.1-3.2 degrees and 85 degrees fully open. Normal?

I was just reading your post and trying to figure out what I could contribute. I never really tested my TPS, I just replaced it since I was convinced that was the source of my problem (as turned out, TPS was not the problem ... but I thought it was because I had a weird symptom where my idle fluctuates, but is normal/stable when I unplug the TPS). I'm not sure how you tested it exactly, but if I was going to do it I would have done it off-bike and using method for testing a "potentiometer", since that's what the TPS is basically, a potentiometer.

There are videos online that show how you can test a TPS/potentiometer ... basically what you're looking for is an appropriate Ohm value corresponding to each degree turn, and if you see spikes or dips then it's malfunctioning.

Other than that, it sounds like we have somewhat different problems, since my main issue is stalling + surging + fluctuating idle. HOWEVER, I just read this one posting where the problem sounds closer to yours, and culprit turned out to be a bad CPS (or bad CPS ground). So that's another possibility you should look into.

See here: http://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/ducati-monster-s-models/318769-s4rs-took-running-like-crap-2.html

[axle167]

Sorry to bring up an old thread.

My 07 S4Rs is also having the same cut out, surging and stalling out issue.

A local shop says bad coil code came up and should replace them.  I thought strange that both coil would go at the same time, but went ahead with new coils.

Of course, after new coils problem still persist.  Thinking a bad ground somewhere?

@czen - how did it go with your bike?

[ducpainter]

Sorry to bring up an old thread.

My 07 S4Rs is also having the same cut out, surging and stalling out issue.

A local shop says bad coil code came up and should replace them.  I thought strange that both coil would go at the same time, but went ahead with new coils.

Of course, after new coils problem still persist.  Thinking a bad ground somewhere?

@czen - how did it go with your bike?

czen hasn't been active here for close to four years. You might try pm'ing, or emailing him.

[czen]

Sorry to bring up an old thread.

My 07 S4Rs is also having the same cut out, surging and stalling out issue.

A local shop says bad coil code came up and should replace them.  I thought strange that both coil would go at the same time, but went ahead with new coils.

Of course, after new coils problem still persist.  Thinking a bad ground somewhere?

@czen - how did it go with your bike?

Hi there - Sorry to hear you're having these troubles. And apologies for not responding sooner.

With my bike, I had a series of electrical issues (for example, ignition relays blowing, loss of power to one of the cylinders, etc.) ... I just got tired of the whole thing and ended up replacing the entire wiring harness. I also installed new (or rather, used-new) ignition coils, coil cables, etc.

I was also having issues with my Throttle Position Sensor, so I replaced that; same with the stepper motor, which was definitely not working properly. To be on the safe side, I even installed a new air temp sensor. Basically, every electrical component that could cause problems, and that was relatively easy to fix, I went ahead and replaced. I used either brand new parts or "new" used.

Obviously, I also replaced spark plugs, and other stuff like that. (About the spark plugs, I noticed I had made a mistake by writing/installing a Ducati Performance map onto my ECU. My plugs were getting badly fouled up, especially in slightly colder weather. I examined the map more carefully, and discovered that the fueling map for the "warm up" phase was all screwed up. So I just re-installed the original map, but without the O2 sensor, which I deleted.)

I also did a Throttle Body balance/snyc - I used the most comprehensive instructions provided on this site here ... I'm sure you can find them.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I did A LOT of work ... and now the bike runs pretty much perfectly (except maybe my throttle is a tad twitchy even though I have a throttle tamer installed ... may need a lube or something).

I may have missed a few steps/items from my rather comprehensive list of repairs ... I posted a complete list on one of the other forums a while back. I will try to find it and will copy/paste it here.

Note: about the possibility of there being a short ... you are right to suspect this. Even if it is not ultimately the cause of the ignition coil malfunction, any kind of short could cause issues. I find that these bikes have to be pretty much in perfect shape in order to run properly ... not much margin for error. So for example, at every start-up, the ECU needs to be initialized "properly", and a short can prevent that. In may case, I had caused a minor short when I did a tail chop and installed a new integrated tail light; I had left the old wiring harness for the old taillight without 100% properly sealing off the signal light wires with electrical tape ... so a couple of wires were slightly touching. As you can imagine, it took me forever to figure out that this little thing was causing me running problems, e.g., random stalls, etc.

Anyway, I hope this is somewhat useful to you ... sorry I don't have an easy solution. But my approach was, basically, replace as much of the electrical system as I could ... versus trying to chase down all the specific little gremlins that are causing the problems. It's a sort of a blunderbuss approach, but eventually, it worked for me. I did most of it myself, with some other stuff left to a mechanic (e.g., timing belt change, valve clearance, etc.)

Note: most recently, I installed an AntiGravity Lithium Ion battery and a new MOSFET Regulator (not that the old one was busted ... again, I just wanted to make sure everything ran well.)

Best of luck!

Cheers!

I will try to get you that list I made on the other forums, just in case you find it helpful.

[czen]

Note: for a while, I also had a random-high-RPMs/high idle issue as well ... discussed here:

https://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/127988-high-idle.html

As you might imagine, there was a time when I seriously considered taking a sledgehammer to my bike, LOL! 

[czen]

OK, SO HERE IS MY (TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION) COMPLETE LIST OF REPAIRS I DID ON MY 2006 S2R1K .... HOPE IT HELPS:

It's from 2017 and from another forum where I had requested advice on the same issues as I had done here on this forum: https://www.ducatimonster.org/forums/tech/309393-recurring-ignition-coils-error-code-p0351-both-coils-circuits-s2r1k-3.html

Maybe take a look at some of the other people who responded and who appear to have had similar issues. Again, I hope all this is of some assistance. Good luck!!!

--------------
Hi - sorry I didn't respond sooner.

I'm not getting the coil related error codes recently. Unfortunately, I'm not sure why exactly I had them in the first place.

One possibility - which I suspect - is that whenever the bike stalled out, that would cause the coil error codes to come up. In other words, the stalling would cause the coils to shut down and that would cause the error codes. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that makes sense.

My bike is also not stalling lately, so again, that makes me think the two went together.

I did a lot of electrical "repairs" on mine:

- I replaced the entire wiring harness

- I got newer (still used but newer) coils

- I got new Magnecor coil cables

- replaced the TPS (though I learned later tnere was nothing really wrong with my original one)

- replaced the CPS sensor (crank position sensor, or RPM sensor)

- cleaned out all connections I could get to with Deoxit

- replaced the IAC (idle air control valve, or stepper motor) ... there was definitely a problem with this ... it was malfunctioning

- replaced the main and ignition relays

- solved a possible shorting issue in the rear tail/license plate light

- got a new battery

- had the injectors cleaned, tested and matched

- new spark plugs

- replaced the air temp sensor with a brand new one

[I may be forgetting some things ... i did all this over 2 seasons]

.......

The bike currently runs fairly well. Not as well as I'd like it to, and not as smooth as I know it can run, but better than before.

Last season, towards the end, it was doing something weird: the idle RPMs would suddenly and randomly jump up to 3000 or more.

So far this season it has not done that, but I can't say 100% for sure it won't.

Last remaining problem, at this point, is a sort of "jerky", uneven ride: even while cruising, it sort of gently "bucks" or "lugs" or "rocks" back ... as if the fuel is being randomly cut off or maybe the clutch slipping or something. Hard to explain, but basically not a smooth ride, even at high RPMs.

I don't know why this is happening ... will do some more fixes and see. It's also possible it needs basic tuning, TB balance, etc.
Last edited by czen; 05-03-2017 at 10:14 PM.