I have a new 696 (yes I know, they are all new) with the Termi's and ecu kit installed when I took delivery. It almost died on me on the highway the other day. The temp indicator, it is just a bar graph, was pegged. I was doing 65 for about 8 min, my typical commute, and any throttle would bog the motor heavily. The thing backfires and stumbles some at part throttle, I am thinking The mapping on the ecu is off a little. Any thoughts? Other than that it is a blast to ride, and the Termis with the DB killers removed is LOUD.
hope you get that looked at soon, it almost sounds like fuel starvation to me.
It only happened once at about 134miles. The thought the same thing and thought maybe I ran the tank dry. He was pretty surre he gave it to me full though. So I went to the gas station and put 1.6 gal in it. So that means I got 83.75 mpg? Probably running super lean, hence the overheat, or it is they most fuel efficient thing out there. :-\
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 03, 2008, 07:46:24 AM
It only happened once at about 134miles. The thought the same thing and thought maybe I ran the tank dry. He was pretty surre he gave it to me full though. So I went to the gas station and put 1.6 gal in it. So that means I got 83.75 mpg? Probably running super lean, hence the overheat, or it is they most fuel efficient thing out there. :-\
Even I dont get those kinds of MPG on my crf230! Did they re-map the ecu, either something is wrong with the ecu or you have a block in your fuel line/vac. tubes. When will you be taking it back in.
have it checked out asap - that doesn't sound good.
mitt
we have one with a similar issue as well.. we have eliminated the ECU as the problem by swapping ECU with our demo. We will work on it more today and we will begin looking at fuel delivery, venting etc..
Quote from: Dave R on June 03, 2008, 08:52:21 AM
we have one with a similar issue as well.. we have eliminated the ECU as the problem by swapping ECU with our demo. We will work on it more today and we will begin looking at fuel delivery, venting etc..
Is that with Termis too?
Baseline: 300mi on my total stocker - 44mpg.
Quote from: SteveH on June 03, 2008, 12:46:51 PM
Baseline: 300mi on my total stocker - 44mpg.
Same exactly with me. 300 miles, 44mpg. Not bad. Thats a lot of short run stop and go too.
The demo at my dealer had the same fueling issues.
Quote from: Snips on June 03, 2008, 10:16:16 AM
Is that with Termis too?
after we checked a stock ecu we installed pipes and the problem still exists but less
Reading this makes it easier for me to wait. ;D Hope you get the bug though!
A
Now that`s why you buy a bike from second model year onwards [roll]
Hello, this is my first post here, I've been reading in a few different forums and I think I've found my home. I just picked up my first monster a couple weeks ago, Black 696 with CF Termis. I'm loving it, about 20 miles until my first service and I've noticed the same problems. I haven't had it die on my, but I do get some jerkiness when trying to maintain a constant speed below, say, 40 mph. And also some popping on decel. I talked to the tech at my dealer (LifeCycle, Kalamazoo, MI), and he said something about two o2 sensors, and that he had witnessed it on other models with the same configuration (Keeping the o2 sensors instead of ditching them). I've heard that this is some sort of trim dial on the DP ECU, is this something I can play with?
Quote from: big bear on June 04, 2008, 04:46:13 AM
Now that`s why you buy a bike from second model year onwards [roll]
Yeah, that worked out for the S2R1k owners too...
I don't know -- I just don't think Ducati has got this whole O2 stuff figured out yet. They admited to a problem w/ the 1k's, and said none of those issues will affect the 696 now that they have dual O2 sensors. I might be a little cynical but so far that isn't looking too good... To soon to tell I guess.
I hope it gets worked out, or I'll have to start looking for S2r 800s. [moto]
Quote from: big bear on June 04, 2008, 04:46:13 AM
Now that`s why you buy a bike from second model year onwards [roll]
I've got a first year 1098, 848, S4R, and first fuel injected M900 in my garage right now and they are all great bikes. None of them have had any issues.
Quote from: silentbob on June 04, 2008, 08:25:53 AM
I've got a first year 1098, 848, S4R, and first fuel injected M900 in my garage right now and they are all great bikes. None of them have had any issues.
I don't think he was saying first year bikes are crap. Just that they tend to have more problems than models that have been out longer. And obviously not all first year models are plagued with issues.
An oxygen sensor equipped Ducati with fueling issues? Imagine that! [roll]
Quote from: silentbob on June 04, 2008, 08:25:53 AM
I've got a first year 1098, 848, S4R, and first fuel injected M900 in my garage right now and they are all great bikes. None of them have had any issues.
I have a first year M1000, and no bad valve guides (yet) or FI problems like the later 1000s and s2r1ks.
My theory, and I work as an engineer designing products for production, is the best products come in the 2nd half of the first year. The reasoning is that all products will have some birthing bugs, but the original team is still assembled, and has the greatest knowledge of the product, and typically can fix them.
After the first year, then suppliers start to get changed, materials change for cost reductions, etc, and the original team is onto working on something else, and some poor production engineer is trying to test and OK these changes with only a fraction of the product knowledge. Some products actually get worse after a couple years on the market.
Hopefully this 696 problem can get worked out. The design is finally growing on me, and the next bigger Monsters should be interesting.
mitt
Quote from: wbeck257 on June 04, 2008, 05:51:24 AM
I don't know -- I just don't think Ducati has got this whole O2 stuff figured out yet. They admited to a problem w/ the 1k's, and said none of those issues will affect the 696 now that they have dual O2 sensors. I might be a little cynical but so far that isn't looking too good... To soon to tell I guess.
I hear you. Fuel Injection problems have kept me away from both the 695 and S2R1000. I tried to buy a lightly used 695 a while back from the local dealer. They wouldn't sell it to me until they could get the surging problems worked out. Four months later I took my deposit back. I think they finally got it fixed with a DP ECU, but that was long after I had found another bike. A year later I test rode a stock 07 S2R1000 with surging problems. Another lost sale.
The one thing that is odd about this potential problem is that the original poster said his bike had the DP ECU. This seemed to be the one item that fixed the problems for the 695 & S2R1000.
Maybe it is just not possible to have an air-cooled motorcycle meet these stringent emmissions without some problems. The latest Harleys are also having problems running too lean and causing extremely high running temperatures.
I finally got my CF Termis pipes on my matte black 696. It went in two stages. First I have to add that I bought the bike out of town as there's no dealer for hundreds of miles. Along with it I picked up the Pipe kit. The tech guy asked who was going to install and tune it once I got them in. The salesman never mentioned this to me but I bought them anyway. The tech also said I could run just the silencers alone for the time being until I got to a dealer. He claimed this wouldnt be a problem. I tried it out that way yesterday and it worked pretty good. As it has been said, the bike is LOUD with the db killers removed and no louder than stock with them in. I also noticed what seemed to be a small flat spot when you whacked open the throttle at 3500 rpm or so. Today I finished installing the whole kit. The bike seems to run a little rougher when it is cruzing along under a light load at 4000 rpm. I ran it for 30 minutes at 22 celsius and only three bars would show on the temp meter.
Interesting. The thing that concerns me most about my bike right now (total stocker...my termi's are in; just not getting 'em on until I have to go back for the 600mi), is that the weather has been fairly nice but the temp gauge has seen 5 bars. Usually it hangs at 3-4; but to me 5 bars seems a little high; considering its only been in the upper 70's and Im not even in major traffic.
I imagine though its from running stoopid lean; and the DPECU should take care of it.
Quote from: SteveH on June 04, 2008, 07:47:23 PM
Interesting. The thing that concerns me most about my bike right now (total stocker...my termi's are in; just not getting 'em on until I have to go back for the 600mi), is that the weather has been fairly nice but the temp gauge has seen 5 bars. Usually it hangs at 3-4; but to me 5 bars seems a little high; considering its only been in the upper 70's and Im not even in major traffic.
I imagine though its from running stoopid lean; and the DPECU should take care of it.
The problem with the OP was the fact that he had the DP kit and it caused his bike to run like poop. Or so it seems....
Does anyone know if the 696 can be tuned via power commander?
I haven't seen anything over 4 bars on mine (w/CF Termis since mile/km 1). Been out for some sustained rides at 70, only then does it move from 3 bars to 4. I've only had problems with a little bit of stuttering/surging at lower speeds with little throttle.
Quote from: nkryptit on June 05, 2008, 05:44:03 AM
I haven't seen anything over 4 bars on mine (w/CF Termis since mile/km 1). Been out for some sustained rides at 70, only then does it move from 3 bars to 4. I've only had problems with a little bit of stuttering/surging at lower speeds with little throttle.
Do you have the Dp Ecu kit? If not, are you just running the silencers?
I've got the DP Slip-Ons + ECU + Filter
I'd definitely bring it in and make them check it out for you.
By the way, do you have any pictures of your bike? I have yet to see a Dark with the Termi's on it. It would be much appreciated! :)
Quote from: silentbob on June 04, 2008, 08:25:53 AM
I've got a first year 1098, 848, S4R, and first fuel injected M900 in my garage right now and they are all great bikes. None of them have had any issues.
Sorry to get off topic here, but do you mind if I ask what you do so I know what to major in??? ;D
(http://dancaswell.com:70/Monster/ThreeQuarter.jpg)
(http://dancaswell.com:70/Monster/Termis.jpg)
Not great pics, I'll be taking some more photos soon, maybe tonight if I find time.
Wow that's really nice looking! [thumbsup]
I hope your problems get worked out soon...
Thanks! I'm going in for my first service next week Thursday, I'll let ya'll know if I find out anything new after that.
Quote from: 2-Wheelin Hooligan on June 05, 2008, 01:07:25 PM
Sorry to get off topic here, but do you mind if I ask what you do so I know what to major in??? ;D
I'm a professional bike sitter.
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc19/silentbob_pics/P2238493.jpg)
I have a stock 696, now with 900 miles on, carefully broke-in and serviced at 600 miles.
Once warmed, I've only seen between 3 bars and 4 bars (it does fluctuate between those, depending on load & speed (for cooling). This is at cool Summer temps (50s to 70s F)
Quote from: SteveH on June 03, 2008, 12:46:51 PM
Baseline: 300mi on my total stocker - 44mpg.
380 miles and averaging 47mpg with stock pipes. Never seen temp gauge pegged and riding in only 95+ deg temps
Quote from: Snips on June 05, 2008, 03:28:29 PM
I have a stock 696, now with 900 miles on, carefully broke-in and serviced at 600 miles.
Once warmed, I've only seen between 3 bars and 4 bars (it does fluctuate between those, depending on load & speed (for cooling). This is at cool Summer temps (50s to 70s F)
Isnt this just a US thing? I pick mine up next week(w/ c-termies) and all this killed the excitement. You buy the best you expect the best. I hope they get this resolved [bang]
Quote from: NAK3D696 on June 05, 2008, 04:29:31 PM
You buy the best you expect the best. I hope they get this resolved [bang]
No offense, but I wouldn't consider the entry level monster "the best".
We will just have to wait and see how widespread this issue is. Also, how Ducati will address it. They kind of swept the S2R 1000 issue under the rug and never have offered a fix or really adknowedge it technically. However, the 1098 stalling issue was fixed with a recall. That puts them at 1 - 1 with fueling issues on these new o2 bikes....
My 696 has always runs between 3-4 bars on the temp gauge. Also my dealer said the bike should be hooked up to an analyzer to be set finally. I haven't had mine on one yet but it doesn't run like some on here. Did you guys get your tuned at the dealership and if so, what is their responce?
Quote from: wbeck257 on June 05, 2008, 05:20:00 PM
No offense, but I wouldn't consider the entry level monster "the best".
We will just have to wait and see how widespread this issue is. Also, how Ducati will address it. They kind of swept the S2R 1000 issue under the rug and never have offered a fix or really adknowedge it technically. However, the 1098 stalling issue was fixed with a recall. That puts them at 1 - 1 with fueling issues on these new o2 bikes....
Guess I wasnt specific enough for you "Ducati" ( referring to the best) as opposed to honda , yamaha, kaw etc... [thumbsup]
alot of the same issues the 696 has, the 695 had before it.
I would have thought they would have ironed out the issue.
as for a fix coming from Ducati? Don't hold your breath. Nothing was done for the S2R 1000, nothing was done for the 695 and nothing will likely be done for the 696.
:)
Quote from: onederer on June 05, 2008, 07:33:33 PM
alot of the same issues the 696 has, the 695 had before it.
I would have thought they would have ironed out the issue.
as for a fix coming from Ducati? Don't hold your breath. Nothing was done for the S2R 1000, nothing was done for the 695 and nothing will likely be done for the 696.
:)
I thought the DP package (pipes, ECU, airbox) was a "fix" of sorts for the 695 fueling issues although not an official acknowledgment by Ducati of the problem. I am concerned to hear the fueling issues on the 696 appear to be occurring on bikes that have the termi pipes installed...
That's why i didn't label it as a fix coming from Ducati.
the termi and ecu will fix the issue but at a cost...and a hefty one at that. roughly 18% of the original cost of the motorcycle.
Now a software fix or replacement ECU on Ducati would be the most desirable fix.
I hope it gets fixed for all, I see it as a safety issue. When the stutter happens at low/medium speed while rolling on in a turn it CAN unsettle the suspension.
Now even with the Kit, the 696 still has issues. That's just bad juju.
Lots of other brands are having fueling issues as well. And doing little about it. So it seems that it is just the norm for lots of the motorcycle industry to just ignore it as they probably just figure that the riders are going monkey with the bike any ways.
guys I am certain DNA/Ducati will come up with a solution soon.. Biggest part of the equation is that this is the first bike with Siemens FI vs Weber Marelli as all other Ducati FI bikes use. Also add to the equation that it remains a closed loop FI system with stock or DP pipes, hence the minimal to no adjustments available.. There is a slight learning curve here with a new model. Ducati is counting on this model so I can promise you the best of the best techs out there are working on sorting the small handful of problem bikes that have surfaced
It is my understanding from posts elsewhere, the 695 fueling problems were, in some cases, handled with the Ducati covered brown-goo warranty fix. I believe I read that some 695 owners received the new engine mapping at no cost when the warranty repair to the heads were dealt with. It appeared this was not handled uniformly. Maybe an internal Ducati NA memo exists regarding this. Maybe some individual shops thinking that repeated warranty fixes would be required decided on this course. I hope Ducati comes up with a fix, but tend to agree with Onederer that we may not see an official fix.
I think you need to take into account that both the 695 and presumably the S2R1000 engine are going to be phased out on short term. Ducati probably didn't want to invest much more in those engines; hence no real solution. The 696 on the other hand is going to stay for a while, and one would hope therefore they would invest more to resolve the problems of this engine.
Do keep in mind an "official fix", if due to either due to mapping or another emissions related problem, needs to comply with EPA testing and compliance. This can take a while.
Dave R, have you sold or serviced any 696 Monsters with the problem?
any updates?
I have been doing some experimentation this weekend. In general I found the same thing, just not the over heating with the complete kit without db killers. The bike ran poorly with the full kit installed. I pulled the plugs and it was way lean. What I dont get here is what is the purpose of the new module if the kit was designed for race only, open baffle with high volume air filter? The reason I ask is because it appears the original module is richer than the race version. In my experience all fuel injected bikes today are running too lean in the midrange for emission purposes. This is confusing that when you add a complete factory engineered kit it even runs leaner. It ended up the only acceptable way to get the bike to work decently, besides totally stock , was too put the stock filter with stock module and run the Termis with the db killers installed. I will wait until it gets sorted out before installing the other stuff. The bike runs great this way, is a little to quite, but appears my only option.
I ask this question again as nobody answered it before. Did the guys who got the complete kit get the dealer to install it and fine tune it or did you do like me and install it yourself?
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o257/Ultra54/IM002173.jpg)
Quote from: gearhead on June 08, 2008, 11:30:50 AM
I have been doing some experimentation this weekend. In general I found the same thing, just not the over heating with the complete kit without db killers. The bike ran poorly with the full kit installed. I pulled the plugs and it was way lean. What I dont get here is what is the purpose of the new module if the kit was designed for race only, open baffle with high volume air filter? The reason I ask is because it appears the original module is richer than the race version. In my experience all fuel injected bikes today are running too lean in the midrange for emission purposes. This is confusing that when you add a complete factory engineered kit it even runs leaner. It ended up the only acceptable way to get the bike to work decently, besides totally stock , was too put the stock filter with stock module and run the Termis with the db killers installed. I will wait until it gets sorted out before installing the other stuff. The bike runs great this way, is a little to quite, but appears my only option.
I ask this question again as nobody answered it before. Did the guys who got the complete kit get the dealer to install it and fine tune it or did you do like me and install it yourself?
No FHE, but most likely TPS and CO would need to be set on the DP computer. It the computer does not know where the throttle is one of the most important inputs is missing and in the past DP computers required CO trim also.
Just FYI, I used to have a 695. I battled with DNA for over 3 months about the temp./brown goo problem. Their "official" response was to replace the heads that were browned. Replacing them did not fix the temperature issue. DNAs official response to the temperature issue is that its meant to run that hot. They recommended I buy the whole termi kit and ecu thing to make my bike run cooler if I was worried about constant 300 degree temps.
So I sold the 695 and bought an s2r800.
Back on topic, good luck getting your 696s fixed.
How does one fix what isn't broken? The stock bike works like a charm. My kit I bought hasn't been trimmed yet by the dealer is all. Like I said, it works withe the CF cans and db killer for now.
Quote from: gearhead on June 08, 2008, 08:19:29 PM
How does one fix what isn't broken? The stock bike works like a charm. My kit I bought hasn't been trimmed yet by the dealer is all. Like I said, it works withe the CF cans and db killer for now.
If you're referring to what I said, I wasn't speaking about your bike. I was speaking towards those owners of 696s that are having issues. :)
Yes, I was refering to what you had said. I,m not aware of any issues the stock 696 has that are similar to the ones you descibed with your stock 695 though. Ironically, the 696 works great stock and has issues with the full race Termi installed where you say the stock 695 ran crap until you installed the kit on it.
Why is it that most ECU and EFI problems seem to affectb Ducatis in the USA and much less so in Europe and rest of the world?
I believe that the problem is caused by Gasohol as my S4 runs perfectly on regular fuel but very poorly on Gasohol E10. Problems outlined by S2r and 695 forum members have been seen here when using Gasohol but dissapear when regular gasoline is used.
E5 and E10 are in general use all over USA but not at all common in Europe , Middle East and most of Asia. here in Thailand there is a big push to gasohol but even with compatible motors it works poorly causing weak running ,power losses and higher fuel use. I try to use Regular fuel always.
SO WHAT FUEL ARE YOU USING?
Ducati techs at the Bolongna factory told me that all Ducatis lose 5-10%power on gasohol and it makes running weak and glitchy.
What the hell is gasohol?
Also, are most Ducati's supposed to take premium fuel or regular?
Quote from: gearhead on June 09, 2008, 03:28:00 AM
Yes, I was refering to what you had said. I,m not aware of any issues the stock 696 has that are similar to the ones you descibed with your stock 695 though. Ironically, the 696 works great stock and has issues with the full race Termi installed where you say the stock 695 ran crap until you installed the kit on it.
I'm not saying the 696 has the same problems the 695s were having. My point was that people with problems might have a helluva time getting DNA to recognize it. Or they'll have to spend a shitload of money on a termi kit for the bike to get it to run right.
To all those having issues (obviously you aren't gearhead and congrats on that), good luck.
Quote from: jerryz on June 09, 2008, 03:57:36 AM
Why is it that most ECU and EFI problems seem to affectb Ducatis in the USA and much less so in Europe and rest of the world?
I believe that the problem is caused by Gasohol as my S4 runs perfectly on regular fuel but very poorly on Gasohol E10. Problems outlined by S2r and 695 forum members have been seen here when using Gasohol but dissapear when regular gasoline is used.
E5 and E10 are in general use all over USA but not at all common in Europe , Middle East and most of Asia. here in Thailand there is a big push to gasohol but even with compatible motors it works poorly causing weak running ,power losses and higher fuel use. I try to use Regular fuel always.
SO WHAT FUEL ARE YOU USING?
You are correct about Gasohol, except we call it oxygenated "clean fuel". Besides the loss of power the 02 sensor sniffs the extra oxygen, throwing mixture off and the fuel doesn't want to atomize a as well as proper gasoline. Many of us in the US have no choice and must use it.
Ducati techs at the Bolongna factory told me that all Ducatis lose 5-10%power on gasohol and it makes running weak and glitchy.
You are correct about Gasohol, except we call it oxygenated "clean fuel". Besides the loss of power the 0
2 sensor sniffs the extra oxygen, throwing mixture off and the fuel doesn't want to atomize a as well as proper gasoline. Many of us in the US have no choice and must use it
So does that mean that this is a fuel problem, and not so much a fuel system problem. If I pump premium here in the states, am I getting this "gasohol"?
Quote from: nkryptit on June 09, 2008, 06:52:53 AM
If I pump premium here in the states, am I getting this "gasohol"?
Exactly what I want to know. 93 Octane Premium. And what about Shell's 93 "V-Power"?
The mixture should be listed at the pump. Most pumps in GA use 10%.
A lot of info here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States#Current_trends
QuoteMy point was that people with problems might have a helluva time getting DNA to recognize it.
Right on, I see the light now, sorry.
I have been riding my bike alot the last few days and have a couple of findings. I notice two things. I will keep my observations of only engine performance, the rest is awesome too but for lack of confusion I will stick to the motor.What I notice is it behaves diferently depending how/where you ride it. I see a protential for improvement in one small area that lies around 3800- 4200 rpm with the bike under a light load. This is right where you might find yourself cruising say on the highway. I believe this is an epa thing as we spend most of out time on the bike around this rpm and light load. Now, if you leave a light hard and load the engine good, the bike launches hard and pulls strong right through the rpm range from 3500 rpm to 9000. There is great throttle response and the bike pulls clean and hard from a very low rpm. Now if you lolly gag and loft through the gears the hole in the 3800 - 4200 rpm shows its head. I love this bike. I own a mint condition 2002 VFR 800 Honda that I have ridden for years and jumping off the Duc onto it is alarming to say the least. The Duc is sooooo much better its is amazing.
Quote from: gearhead on June 09, 2008, 06:44:29 PM
Right on, I see the light now, sorry.
I have been riding my bike alot the last few days and have a couple of findings. I notice two things. I will keep my observations of only engine performance, the rest is awesome too but for lack of confusion I will stick to the motor.What I notice is it behaves diferently depending how/where you ride it. I see a protential for improvement in one small area that lies around 3800- 4200 rpm with the bike under a light load. This is right where you might find yourself cruising say on the highway. I believe this is an epa thing as we spend most of out time on the bike around this rpm and light load. Now, if you leave a light hard and load the engine good, the bike launches hard and pulls strong right through the rpm range from 3500 rpm to 9000. There is great throttle response and the bike pulls clean and hard from a very low rpm. Now if you lolly gag and loft through the gears the hole in the 3800 - 4200 rpm shows its head. I love this bike. I own a mint condition 2002 VFR 800 Honda that I have ridden for years and jumping off the Duc onto it is alarming to say the least. The Duc is sooooo much better its is amazing.
Thanks Gear!
Your post makes me feel a WHOLE lot better about the bike! I was close to ditching the idea and going with the s2r 800. I may get the bike with slip ons and see if that will make due. Will I need the other DP kit or can I just run the slip ons?
Quote from: nkryptit on June 09, 2008, 06:52:53 AM
So does that mean that this is a fuel problem, and not so much a fuel system problem. If I pump premium here in the states, am I getting this "gasohol"?
If you live in the US and live in or near an urban area or any area that has air quality problems ethanol laced fuels are mandated and can be as high as 10%. High octane fuels are more likely to have a higher ethanol content since the additional ethanol adds octane. I dislike the name "premium fuel''. The name creates the illusion it is better quality. The octane is higher and unless your engine requires higher octane there is no benefit.
As I am doing for now, running just the slip ons with the baffles installed, is fine. I hope in the near future I can get this taken care of but for now it works great.Just needs a little fine tuning.
So what does Ducati recommend for octane ratings?
Also, shouldn't the bikes that are sold here in the US be set up to accept these common fuels?
Quote from: SolidSnake3035 on June 10, 2008, 03:15:55 AM
So what does Ducati recommend for octane ratings?
Also, shouldn't the bikes that are sold here in the US be set up to accept these common fuels?
+1 ... I was told (by the sales guy) when I picked up my bike that it was a "premium" only bike. Anyone want to call BS?
Quote from: gearhead on June 08, 2008, 11:30:50 AM
I have been doing some experimentation this weekend. In general I found the same thing, just not the over heating with the complete kit without db killers. The bike ran poorly with the full kit installed. I pulled the plugs and it was way lean. What I dont get here is what is the purpose of the new module if the kit was designed for race only, open baffle with high volume air filter? The reason I ask is because it appears the original module is richer than the race version. In my experience all fuel injected bikes today are running too lean in the midrange for emission purposes. This is confusing that when you add a complete factory engineered kit it even runs leaner. It ended up the only acceptable way to get the bike to work decently, besides totally stock , was too put the stock filter with stock module and run the Termis with the db killers installed. I will wait until it gets sorted out before installing the other stuff. The bike runs great this way, is a little to quite, but appears my only option.
I ask this question again as nobody answered it before. Did the guys who got the complete kit get the dealer to install it and fine tune it or did you do like me and install it yourself?
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o257/Ultra54/IM002173.jpg)
I am the original author of this post, and to answer your question, yes I had the full DP kit installed when I picked it up from the dealer, with db killers removed, ( have I said it is LOUD!!). Another Question has been the fuel. And the Owners manual states Premiun fuel only. One has to wonder is Ducati failed to take into account that we here in the States have no choice to but to run E10,ethanol,gas blend. I haven't had a chance to put many miles on it since my original post, but I love riding it. I haven't had it overheat again but it still stumbles at part throttle rolling into full throttle. My dealer rep still says nothing is wrong but that there my be an ECU fix coming (??????). I still can't figure out how I went the first 134 miles on 1.6 gallons, it is weird
The 95 octane recommendation in the owner's manual is in RON ( Research Octane Number) and is more like European middle grade. Here in the US we use AKI rating which is an average RON and MON (Manufacturer's Octane Number). RON and MON are two different test sequences so the mathematical average is not an accurate cross reference to RON. Most stock 2 valve air cooled Ducs do not ping on 87 AKI. Since the 696 is a new engine with fairly high compression 87 may or may not be sufficient octane.
I was doing a little looking around on ethanol gas in the US and found this. http://www.jwardell.com/mini/2006/06/27/ethanol-gas-problems/ (http://www.jwardell.com/mini/2006/06/27/ethanol-gas-problems/). It looks like some vehicles have seen some real damage due to the mixture. Let me know what you guys think?
Quote from: nkryptit on June 10, 2008, 08:24:29 AM
I was doing a little looking around on ethanol gas in the US and found this. http://www.jwardell.com/mini/2006/06/27/ethanol-gas-problems/ (http://www.jwardell.com/mini/2006/06/27/ethanol-gas-problems/). It looks like some vehicles have seen some real damage due to the mixture. Let me know what you guys think?
I don't like it, but most of us have no choice. As far as major damage from use in newer US legal vehicles goes, not very likely. I do suspect the possibility of somewhat shorter fuel pump life and problems from solvent properties causing fuel injection issues in vehicles that previously were running on non oxygenated fuel do happen. Older vehicles, different story since components did not have to be alcohol compatible.
Thats the problem with most USA fuels the mandated Ethanol content . As Ducati do not design the bikes to run on Gasohol, they design the bike in Italy to run on regular RON 95 fuel with no Ethanol in it. i am sure that the fuel in the majority of US states is going to be a contributor to poor performance and running issues.
We are gradually having Ethanol based fuels same as USA forced on us in Thailand and the stuff is causing loads of problems even in engines supposedly designed for it.
In England most fuel is non Ethanol so there are very few problems with Ducatis there.
jerry
So the real question is: Has anybody with a 696 or other similar FI Ducs OUTSIDE the USA (using fuel with no Ethanol content) have any of these running issues? It is starting to sound like a Power Commander, and individual tuning is going to be needed if Ducati can't figure it out.
With the first two tanks of fuel, I used regular in it. Ran okay, but then I saw the 95+ octane recommendation in the manual and switched to Premium (93 Octane). I will say that since the switch, my mileage has improved along with the smoothness when running.
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 10, 2008, 12:26:42 PM
So the real question is: Has anybody with a 696 or other similar FI Ducs OUTSIDE the USA (using fuel with no Ethanol content) have any of these running issues? It is starting to sound like a Power Commander, and individual tuning is going to be needed if Ducati can't figure it out.
Will a power commander work with the duc's closed loop system?
My experience with S4 is that even with PC3 when i put in Gasohol it runs much slower and uses 15% more fuel it is also rougher , put in Regular 95 and it runs perfectly . my Nissan Maxima iV6 car is the same .
Friends in Thailand with latest closed loop EFI Ducatis report same problems with Gasohol/ ethanol blended fuels. Noone has anything good to say about it ....even guys at the local refineries say its CRAP .
Bah! All of this crap is making my purchase decision even more difficult. :-\
As jerryz said, less BTUs means less power. Add to this the atomization problem and you have O2 sensor trying to over compensate which can be a cause of surge. Ethanol in the is affecting all vehicles, not just our beloved ducs. The V twin is just more sensitive compared to an I4 or your car's 6 or 8 cylinder engine.
Now it doesn't want to start! I'm over it!!!!!! KTM Duke sounds good about now. [bang] :'(
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 11, 2008, 09:31:19 AM
Now it doesn't want to start! I'm over it!!!!!! KTM Duke sounds good about now. [bang] :'(
Did you take it back to Ducati yet? Sorry to hear this man, I think I'll wait out the 696 as long as I can.
Snake, don't sweat it man. I wouldn't change a thing. I would drive 500 miles again to go pick mine up tomorrow at the drop of a hat if I had an option too. Don't get all freaked out dude....it's a forum, thats all.
Its not only the 696 that is affected by Gasohol all closed loop ducatis have problems with as does my open loop S4,, other vehicles such as my Nissan car and the HDs i see everyday in the shop also run less well on Gasohol.The Hds are gasohol compatible burt lose 10% power and 10% gas mileage and pink badly on Gasohol but run perfectly on 91RON regular gas.
Ok Guys,
Question:
Is the "696 Mapping probs" only for bike's with modified exhaust?
I'm not having any of this problem with the stock set up. :)
Best of luck to all having this issue.
Put the Termis on my bike this week. They sound great. Louder than the Termis on my 996. Wasn't expecting that! Too quiet with the baffles (a switch I could flick would be perfect).
On my first highway ride with them, I noticed the phenomenon discussed in this thread. Cruising around 70mph in 6th. Engine oil temp goes up, engine starts lugging, and I start losing speed. Giving more gas has no effect. I pulled into a slower lane and slowed down to about 63mph. After a few minutes, oil temp goes down and everything is "normal" again.
I'm starting to think that there's a dip in the powerband that I was getting "stuck" in (air resistance and gravity keeping me there). I've found that if I cruise around 5000rpm everything's fine. Of course at 5000rpm, I'm going 80mph. :)
How loud are the stock exhaust? I should be fine if I keep the bike stock, does the problem still exist with slip ons?
The stock exhaust has a nice thump to it at idle. As I have said many times, I'm running just the slip ons with baffles and it runs just like stock, which to say is pretty damn good.
Quote from: gearhead on June 12, 2008, 06:29:39 PM
The stock exhaust has a nice thump to it at idle. As I have said many times, I'm running just the slip ons with baffles and it runs just like stock, which to say is pretty damn good.
I feel like I should just take the plunge and buy one!
Gotta say, i've been reading all about this, as i plan on getting a 696, and it sounds to me like it's a mostly US phenomenon...
and from looking at the manual at ducati.com it seems like the US is the only place the bike doesn't have the catalytic converter (except for Cali, where i am) so i'm curious if maybe the Cat is helping the issue out. Something to do with the backpressure it creates?
Anyone in Cali having the issue? (i'm too lazy to reread the thread, but it didn't jump out to me the last dozen times i refreshed through it) anyone with the catalyzed version having the problem?
Interesting you bring that up. I also own an 02 vfr 800 that has a cat on it. I also bought a set of Staintunes for it and they have an outlet hole bigger than the Termi yet they are way quiter, at least by nearly half. I believe the cat acts as a muffler but the hot ticket is to find a 1998 vfr 800 head pipe that doesn't have the cat on it and adapt it to the bike. My VFR also has O2 sensors and to rid the bike of the surging it has you get rid of the sensore and replace a 300 ohm resistor across the wires to trick the computer.
The overheating thing was what worriewd me the most. The little bar graph was pegged at eight bars. Which according to the manual is 191-200 degrees C, (375-390 F). Thats hot. It hasen't overheated yet, althouh I only went back on the highway once. The roughness and surging can be cured with max throttle. I love riding this bike it feels so light, stops like a superbike, and fits great. I did bring it back to the dealer after I couldn't start it the other day. The tech worked for about an hour and it runs pretty good now. All he was able to do was fiddle with the idle speed and mixture. It idles a little high but I don't notice any surging like before.
If it were my bike I'd ride the shit out of it and let it burn up.
Then let Ducati deal w/ that.
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 13, 2008, 04:54:04 AM
The overheating thing was what worriewd me the most. The little bar graph was pegged at eight bars. Which according to the manual is 191-200 degrees C, (375-390 F). Thats hot. It hasen't overheated yet, althouh I only went back on the highway once. The roughness and surging can be cured with max throttle. I love riding this bike it feels so light, stops like a superbike, and fits great. I did bring it back to the dealer after I couldn't start it the other day. The tech worked for about an hour and it runs pretty good now. All he was able to do was fiddle with the idle speed and mixture. It idles a little high but I don't notice any surging like before.
So is the surging gone, or is it a whole lot less than before? I'm glad they can "work" it out though! [thumbsup]
Its mostly gone. The best cure is to throttle thru it [moto] I could tell the tech is a tuner cause he fiddled with it a is just frustrated because it is a closed loop system and he is basically "locked out".
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 13, 2008, 10:16:19 AM
Its mostly gone. The best cure is to throttle thru it [moto] I could tell the tech is a tuner cause he fiddled with it a is just frustrated because it is a closed loop system and he is basically "locked out".
I bet your one happy dude, no regrets?
Was it a cable that he adjusted?
NO regrets. He played with idle speed and mixture. Can't wait to start doing mods.
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 13, 2008, 11:28:11 AM
NO regrets. He played with idle speed and mixture. Can't wait to start doing mods.
Do you know how by any chance?
hi,
If you install the DDA on the bike is there a possibility on find the problem for all it is related in the topic?
I´m a European "possible" 696 owner... but I´m not so sure after I read this topic...
I don t want to spend like at least 9000 euros for a 696 + CF Termi kit, I regret it in the following week after buying it.
best regards,
fLAVIO
Buy it! Ducati will sort out the mapping problems, after all they are the reigning Moto GP champs. I still think this problem is confined to the USA models. Am I wrong, anyone in Europe having issues? I rode the other day and God I love riding it!
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 16, 2008, 07:06:31 PM
Buy it! Ducati will sort out the mapping problems...
They didn't with the 695 and S2R1000.
not even with "power commander" it has been resolute?
here in Europe, we use 95/98 RON gasoline... could it make diference?
Here in Portugal... there will be only ten 696 bikes... for the moment...
If there is a problem... nobody is complaining "yet".
I personally talked/wrote in a Portuguese Bike Forum in the Ducati Area about this issue.
regards, fLAVIO
I don't think there is a problem. There are only a couple people complaining.
Thats why I started this thread, to see if it was just an isolated condition on my bike or if it was more common. I heard one dealer is hoping not to sell anymore because he has had more then enough complaints. I dont know. I would still buy it if I had the chance. Once we can dyno tune these systems the bike will be awsome.
Very interesting thread, as I'm considering buying a 696 all info is good. A bit concerned on this fueling issue as it's been addressed elsewhere. I just don't want to deal with another poorly running bike like my 04 tuono, low rpms still runs like crap. But gotten used to it.
Riding up to NPR ducati GA on Saturday to ride the demo.
Chris
After one ride on the demo it will all become clear to you there is no problem with the bike.
If you keep the bike stock, it should run like a peach. It's only a "problem" when you add the Duc performance kit.
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 17, 2008, 09:45:31 AM
Thats why I started this thread, to see if it was just an isolated condition on my bike or if it was more common. I heard one dealer is hoping not to sell anymore because he has had more then enough complaints. I dont know. I would still buy it if I had the chance. Once we can dyno tune these systems the bike will be awsome.
Where did you hear this rumor from?
QuoteI heard one dealer is hoping not to sell anymore because he has had more then enough complaints.
These kind of statements are total b.s., like saying I heard from a friends friend that your sister's boyfriends mother inlaw doesn't like the color blue because it has been known to cause seazures in lab rats, so therefore I don't recommend anyone buy anything the color blue.
The only mapping problem I've heard of as definite is with the DP ECU/Termi set up. I heard if you run without the baffle it will be a little (not awful) lean, but with the baffles it is fine. I'm sure there will be a flash for this down the road. I did a 30 mile test ride on a stock bike and the engine was spot on. Since the first EFI on squareback VWs , when a tech couldn't get it to run right it was the fault of the black box and it usually wasn't.
Quote from: gearhead on June 18, 2008, 03:26:41 AM
These kind of statements are total b.s., like saying I heard from a friends friend that your sister's boyfriends mother inlaw doesn't like the color blue because it has been known to cause seazures in lab rats, so therefore I don't recommend anyone buy anything the color blue.
Sorry but you dont know what the hell your talking about..... You took a demo ride for what 10 miles.... Well I finally got to take my new 696 out on the highway and exactly like what I read it overheated... Its F@#% Bull@%#.... I have to tell all my friends on their hondas , yamahas etc... sorry ducati puts out bikes that dont work.
in Highway, you run at.... Miles/Hour? (how long.... time?)
and what was the exterior temperature?
does someone take the 696 to a Dynojet and analise if it was lean or rich with the DP termi kit instaled (before and after)?
the over heated problem too.
It was great to have some real "cientific" data to talk about this serious issue.
and a dealer to install a DDA device on a 696 and make a run and analise the problem...
and solve it...
"please" don t tell me... that the answer of a dealer... is... "Sorry the problem is with Ducati, complain to them... we can t do anything about it"
For it was a issue for a refund... (full refund) because if the bike is in warranty period and Ducati/Dealer don t /cant do anything....
Why do the owner have to have the bike?
regards,
fLAVIO
QuoteSorry but you dont know what the hell your talking about..... You took a demo ride for what 10 miles....
Sorry but you don't know what the hell your talking about......I own the bike and have 700 miles on it already. How about a little info other than crying like a baby. What are you refering too when you say over heat? How many bars? Did it stop running? Do you have the Termi kit on it or is it stock? For all we know this could be your first bike and like a noob maybe you are on the highway in 2nd gear at redline for hours at a time.
I did a 250 mile (one way) trip this last weekend, then back the next day. Was doing 80 - 100 most of the way (6k - 7.5k), the beast stayed at 4 bars almost the whole time. The only time I saw it start creeping to 5 bars was when I tried to hold it over 100 for more than a minute or so. I have DP Termis + DPECU + Filter. I think everything is fine, if your bike is cutting out, then there is something else wrong.
Oh wait your this guy [laugh] Nice pic buddy
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i218/bmenefee/lolwhatafag.jpg)
If you read the first post that is exactly whats happening. Not in 2nd [clap] I can deal with the sputtering but have the thing running so hot you have to pull over is unacceptable. I waited 5 months for this damn thing and sorry if i am a little mad i cant ride more than 20 miles.
I have 220 miles on bike. Ambient 75F-95F it does not go over 4 bars on freeway cruising 80mph. In town today it creeped up to 5 bars when i was sitting at a redlight for 3 mins, ambient temp 100F. I took it off and looked in the oil viewfinder and the oil was bubbling, oh yea she was running hot. I cut it off for 1 min, when i restarted it went back to 4 bars and did not come back to 5. Other then that sometimes from a stop it pops but that was only 3 times the other day ambient temp 75F. It does feel like accel from 3000-4000 is week but kicks back on strong around 6000. I have stock setup running 91 octane in norther California. Hope this helps to further resolve this issue.
Temps in South East Va can be 95+ with humidity like a MOFO. I guess the 696 will be a dog in traffic....
I have not checked the accessories but is their a oil cooler available for the bike? That would help alot with rising oil temps!
A
No oil cooler in the 696 specific catalog, I've poured over it for hours, maybe someday.
Christ, I'm in northern Ontario Canada and this year we are lucky to hit 70 for god sake! I struggle to hit 3 bars on mine.
Quote from: fLUNX on June 19, 2008, 02:49:51 AM
in Highway, you run at.... Miles/Hour? (how long.... time?)
and what was the exterior temperature?
does someone take the 696 to a Dynojet and analise if it was lean or rich with the DP termi kit instaled (before and after)?
the over heated problem too.
It was great to have some real "cientific" data to talk about this serious issue.
and a dealer to install a DDA device on a 696 and make a run and analise the problem...
and solve it...
only noticed the roar of the open exhausts! ;D
"please" don t tell me... that the answer of a dealer... is... "Sorry the problem is with Ducati, complain to them... we can t do anything about it"
For it was a issue for a refund... (full refund) because if the bike is in warranty period and Ducati/Dealer don t /cant do anything....
Why do the owner have to hav
regards,
fLAVIO
I explained the problem to the tech at modesto ducati just before he installed my full termis system and he asked if the info had been backed up by info on a dyno or was the info just here-say. I told him no dyno info and he said that "its just here-say without data". Modesto Ducati runs a full dyno tuning shop and race ducatis.
I was in Las Vegas last week and I went to the ducati dealer there and asked about the stalling problem and they said there demo bike with the termis had the stalling problem but was corrected by the techs on the ducati demo truck when it arrived. The dealer told me Ducati is working on the problem.
I have only riden about 5 miles thru town at slow speeds with the termis kit installed but will take it out for a long ride in a couple of days. I was watching the temp and in stayed 4 bars in stop and go traffic in 101 deg. weather temp. I only noticed the roar of the exhausts. ;D
I called the San Rafael, CA dealer about this problem and they completely blew me off. The only thing they offered was for me to bring it in and they could see if they duplicate the heat, but they are right near the way so its always cool there. Talked to another local dealer who said they are calling Ducati North America and will get back to me Monday. Whoopty doo.... oh BTW i put 100 octane in and it does lug as much 3,000-4000rpms, or buck at low RPMS, at the expense of $6.29 a gallon. later
Are you saying that the premium made no dif then?
*not lug, sorry
I sat on one last saturday and it fit me like a glove. It was light too! Felt as light as my Dual Sport CRF230! I may get my bike at Redline motors in Williamsburg, Va since they have, and, run dyno's. I'll get them to run a few dyno sessions when I buy. [moto]
Quote from: williamG on June 22, 2008, 10:01:08 AM
I called the San Rafael, CA dealer about this problem and they completely blew me off. The only thing they offered was for me to bring it in and they could see if they duplicate the heat, but they are right near the way so its always cool there. Talked to another local dealer who said they are calling Ducati North America and will get back to me Monday. Whoopty doo.... oh BTW i put 100 octane in and it does lug as much 3,000-4000rpms, or buck at low RPMS, at the expense of $6.29 a gallon. later
Rather than running around chasing your tails, call DNA, and speak with Mike Norman. He is the Customer Technical Service Rep. He is a 100% straight shooting guy, and won't b.s. you about the problem. I've been dealing with him for years, and he's always gotten results.
Keep in mind that if you do call, there are only about a dozen folks in the office, at any given time, and out of that dozen +/-, there are only 3 tech reps. He may have to refer you to another rep if he's bogged down...which often happens.
They know there are issues with the 696 series, and they are dealing with them as quickly as humanly possible.
Quote from: MOUSEMAN on June 03, 2008, 07:24:00 AM
I have a new 696 (yes I know, they are all new) with the Termi's and ecu kit installed when I took delivery. It almost died on me on the highway the other day. The temp indicator, it is just a bar graph, was pegged. I was doing 65 for about 8 min, my typical commute, and any throttle would bog the motor heavily. The thing backfires and stumbles some at part throttle, I am thinking The mapping on the ecu is off a little. Any thoughts? Other than that it is a blast to ride, and the Termis with the DB killers removed is LOUD.
[/ I have the same problem. The tech told me it is the new ECU that is the problem and it can't be remapped. It is a Ducati problem that they should come through with a fix fairly quickly before new 696 owners have major engine problems. I am going to have the stock ECU reinstalled and wait until they replace the defective ECU with anew one that will let the bike perform properly. I have never had a temperature problem I have driven the bike at 80 MPH and it never overheated the highest the temp ever got was 4 bars. One thing I have noticed is the rear brake makes a howling noise after a lot a severe braking.quote]
Does the Coil issue affect any of this?
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=7873.0