well I weigh roughly 220lbs, I don't think anything with less than 62hp is going to move me all that good up a hill... In all seriousness though I think the Ducati 6__ cc engines are a whole different animal than the 4 valve Japnese 6__cc engines... I think a Ducati 620 is the perfect beginner bike for a responsible owner, idiots will fall on anything and they might want to buy something cheaper.

You may have hit this point but I had to eventually skim. I also disagree with the "newbie under 30,000 miles" comment, I think it all depends where you ride- 30k experience in a ghost town hickville will not train you how to deal with heavy aggressive traffic as good as 10k in a mojor city. 30k in a major city will never prepare you to carve the mountain twistys at a good clip, I am saying I don't think it's the quantity of miles that makes the rider but quality of the miles. A lot of people can rack a lot of miles without cars on all sides of them, for me living in or near major cities all the time I think I can deal with heavy traffic and homocidal cab drivers better than most...

Quote from: Raux on October 11, 2008, 08:14:03 AM
maturity is one of the reasons i advocate the age/cc limit.

True, but I know a lot of 21+ folks with no business driving a lawn mower not just because of skill, but also because they are complete knuckleheads. But agree that there should be some laws that take into account general road experience, rider skill level and age. There was a woman in her late thirties in my riding class that had ZERO experience, passed the course (barely) and was issued her certificate to get a bike. She scared the hell out of me at the start and END of the two day sessions.

I'm not sure what my point is with this post, but all I can say is, there are probably a lot of folks out there that shouldn't be riding ANYTHING for a number of reasons.

Quote from: eesnas on October 11, 2008, 08:22:56 AM
well I weigh roughly 220lbs, I don't think anything with less than 62hp is going to move me all that good up a hill... In all seriousness though I think the Ducati 6__ cc engines are a whole different animal than the 4 valve Japnese 6__cc engines... I think a Ducati 620 is the perfect beginner bike for a responsible owner, idiots will fall on anything and they might want to buy something cheaper.

This is another interesting point. Let's say 400 lbs for the bike + 220 lbs for the rider + 50 pounds for gear = 670 lbs or 10.8 lbs per HP. Maybe not exactly ideal but not bad when you figure that an Camry (the best selling cage) weighs 3280 lbs. Add the driver and it's 3500 lbs plus 200 lbs of fuel, oil, water etc and it's 3700 lbs with 158 HP in the base 4 cylinder model (again, very popular) or 23 lbs per HP. So, even on a 62HP bike, a big guy, has at least, twice the power to weight ratio of the average family sedan.

My point is, every motorcycle on the road is going to be faster than the average flow of traffic. And it's true that an idiot can crash a big wheel and fook themselves up, but it's also true that harnessing performance takes skill. There are more factors to take into consideration and when you're learning to perform a complicated activity like riding a motorcycle, an activity that requires a higher degree of attention and concentration than driving a Camry, it's probably best to do it on a machine that allows you to focus on the fundamentals without the added consideration of trying to fathom out the proper braking technique to decelerate from 135 MPH to avoid that Buick that has suddenly appeared in front of you after 2 seconds of indiscretion with the throttle.

Just my $.02

Quote from: darylbowden on October 10, 2008, 10:26:33 PM

On a side note:  I've ridden with people who have been "riding for years" who still don't know WTF they're doing.  Some people are just never going to be comfortable on a motorcycle and those people, even with their years of experience, are every bit as dangerous as Joe Military on his brand new CBR.

hey, man, i 'm doin' the best i can.... 

So I'm a new rider as of June.  I got a Monster 696 as my first bike and I'm almost at 550 miles.  I do remember reading these types of posts and articles online before getting the monster and yeah I was that self-righteous naive newbie who thought anything less than the 696 wouldn't work for me.  Anyway... I'll admit I've dropped it 4 times... all of which I was traveling under 2 mph or in one case I was just walking it.  Embarrassing, yes, but one undeniable fact I knew when I got the 696 is that I would drop it and it would get scratched up and that would be the price I'd have to pay for getting it as my first bike.  (For all of you wondering: the 696 takes zero-speed drops like a true champ; hardly a scratch beyond the tips of the mirrors, levers and rear levers.)  I'll spare you all my harrowing new-experience ride stories, but I'll say that I'm very happy I didn't get anything smaller than the 696 and I'm already itching for more power.

I think what it comes down to is focus and respect.  New riders don't always understand how much respect is due to the bike and the throttle.  I think my personal experience with cars allowed me to take learning on the 696 at my own pace.  I'm 25 now and I've driven in cages for more than 200,000 miles and in 65+ different manual cars without ever having an accident.  Not to mention the fact that I got the 696 and have learned how to ride it all in NYC and Brooklyn, NY where there is very little opportunity to take it above 40 mph most of the time... 50mph if you're lucky.  Also learning to respect and focus on traffic is a big lesson learned quickly in NYC.  

I'm much more confident now than I was when I first got the bike.  But there's still a lot of respect and love I have for it.  Still no guarantee that I'll go for much longer with out a truly educational crash, but it is possible to start on a 600cc bike and be content and safe.  As long as you're not stupid -- ergo you need to know what being stupid is:  Take the Class!!!

Really I think a large portion of the problem is that severe lack of mid-size bikes.  For a street bike your options are 250, 500, 600, 750, 1000 and up.  What happened to the whole 250-500 range?  Even at 500cc your options are limited and those bikes don't tend to have the 'cool' factor that a 600/750 has.

I think Kawasaki got it right with the new 250 ninja.  That bike looks sharp.  If we there was a supply of good looking 350/400cc bikes, that might remove the stigma as people find out how easy and fun smaller bikes are to ride.  That of course begs the question of 'if the bikes are available will people ride them, or will the bikes be made available because the consumer demands them?"  Right now, there is no demand because new riders are pretty much relegated to a 600cc "beginner's bike."

I've had one acquaintance who works at a dealer say the big problem is the emission rules.  I don't know how true that is, but if it is, I find it ludicrous.


Andy

Quote from: derby on October 11, 2008, 09:04:23 AM
hey, man, i 'm doin' the best i can.... 

Nah dude, I'm talking about that hack gm2

Quote from: Privateer on October 11, 2008, 09:29:07 AM
Really I think a large portion of the problem is that severe lack of mid-size bikes.  For a street bike your options are 250, 500, 600, 750, 1000 and up.  What happened to the whole 250-500 range?  Even at 500cc your options are limited and those bikes don't tend to have the 'cool' factor that a 600/750 has.

I think Kawasaki got it right with the new 250 ninja.  That bike looks sharp.  If we there was a supply of good looking 350/400cc bikes, that might remove the stigma as people find out how easy and fun smaller bikes are to ride.  That of course begs the question of 'if the bikes are available will people ride them, or will the bikes be made available because the consumer demands them?"  Right now, there is no demand because new riders are pretty much relegated to a 600cc "beginner's bike."

I've had one acquaintance who works at a dealer say the big problem is the emission rules.  I don't know how true that is, but if it is, I find it ludicrous.


Andy

ducati had a 400 monster at one time? right?  i mean could you imagine if they came out with an entry level monster BELOW the 696 instead of fitting in the 900 like i want. it would really eat into everyone else's profits. plus i wouldnt have to give up the 696 to the wife 

The 696 was my first bike.  I've always liked ducatis but thought it would be a little much for a first bike at first.  I looked around for other starter bikes like the ninja 250 and the sv650 and so on.  I took my MSF course and it was all very natural for me.  I said that if I got a 100 on my riding test then I'd go ahead and swing the 696.  Sure enough, I got the Monster and haven't regretted it.  I haven't tried to lift the front end or ride zigzagging through traffic or without gear.  And I probably won't ever do any of those.  Do I realise that a mistake can hurt me pretty bad, yeah.  But do I feel uncomfortable on my bike no.  Certainly the 696 is not a fair comparison to a ZX-6r or a GSX-R 600 but even on those (my brother-in-law has a GSX-R 750 that I've ridden) there is a huge peak in the power curve that comes way after 10k rpms.  Most beginning riders will not be flogging the throttle on one of those to hit the huge hp those bikes have.  If they are, they are a danger on any bike not just a larger one.

Quote from: Amlethae on October 11, 2008, 09:05:05 AM
So I'm a new rider as of June.  I got a Monster 696 as my first bike and I'm almost at 550 miles.  I do remember reading these types of posts and articles online before getting the monster and yeah I was that self-righteous naive newbie who thought anything less than the 696 wouldn't work for me.  Anyway... I'll admit I've dropped it 4 times... all of which I was traveling under 2 mph or in one case I was just walking it.  Embarrassing, yes, but one undeniable fact I knew when I got the 696 is that I would drop it and it would get scratched up and that would be the price I'd have to pay for getting it as my first bike.  (For all of you wondering: the 696 takes zero-speed drops like a true champ; hardly a scratch beyond the tips of the mirrors, levers and rear levers.)  I'll spare you all my harrowing new-experience ride stories, but I'll say that I'm very happy I didn't get anything smaller than the 696 and I'm already itching for more power.

I think what it comes down to is focus and respect.  New riders don't always understand how much respect is due to the bike and the throttle.  I think my personal experience with cars allowed me to take learning on the 696 at my own pace.  I'm 25 now and I've driven in cages for more than 200,000 miles and in 65+ different manual cars without ever having an accident.  Not to mention the fact that I got the 696 and have learned how to ride it all in NYC and Brooklyn, NY where there is very little opportunity to take it above 40 mph most of the time... 50mph if you're lucky.  Also learning to respect and focus on traffic is a big lesson learned quickly in NYC.  

I'm much more confident now than I was when I first got the bike.  But there's still a lot of respect and love I have for it.  Still no guarantee that I'll go for much longer with out a truly educational crash, but it is possible to start on a 600cc bike and be content and safe.  As long as you're not stupid -- ergo you need to know what being stupid is:  Take the Class!!!

See I think people are actually at the greatest risk of being hit from behind... Some guy posted something about the weight to HP ratio of a family sedan compaired to a bike, the thing is you should have a big multiple over the average car, you must ride aggressive to survive in traffic as the guy quoted above probably knows, being in NY etc... If your bike cannot move SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the flow of traffic you run the risk of being run over from behind by some girl in an SUV brushing her hair while talking on the phone and finding her favorite playlist on the I-pod, BOOM from behind you end up dead and she spills a latte  . the thing is the drivers behind you are the ones likely to do the most damage and without the available HP you can't avoid them. All bikes have brakes to stop you from danger ahead, of course the skill of the rider is needed to operate the brakes correctly to avoid hazards front-facing, for danger approaching from the rear I think it's important to almost always move faster than the general flow of traffic, otherwise you're at risk of being rear ended with every car that passes. I have seen slow riders almost get whaled so many times it's CRAZY and I got banged up sitting at a red light, it's really the biggest danger out there.

My point of quoting the guy above, well he has illustrated the point I forgot to make earlier. No matter what size bike he went down 4 times and it was all due to general lack of balance and probably coordination. I am not the thinnest guy anymore but I was always very "sure footed", pretty good at sports, but mainly I just have a good sense of balance. Despite the fact I put on some lbs recently I still consider myself pretty stong and my balance is still excellent. I know guys in much better shape than me and they drop stuff, trip on the sidewalk, can't shoot a basketball right, my point is this part of "athleticism" is actually really important for the low speed manuvers. If you're a good athlete, strong and coordinated then I am thinking your only reason for dropping 4 times in such a short span is a lack of focus and deliberateness to your actions. One time when I first got the bike I friggin forgot to put my kickstand down, the good thing is I was fast enough and strong enough to catch the bike before it fell, I don't think it means I am a bad rider it was just me lacking focus at that moment and ever since then I ALWAYS make sure to put my kickstand down I will never forget how pissed I would have been if I didn't catch the bike that one time. Be deliberate, balanced, strong, and quick and there should be no reason to drop at low speed unless you're distracted or slip on some variable on the road. I also always deliberately put my ass on the outside on the seat when making U-turns just like we were taught in the MSF class, you know how many guys I see out there that are just too fat or lazy to do a proper U-turn! it's crazyness... I think a lot of the problems with new riders is pure lack of coordination and balance, and also the failure to continuously practice and develop good habbits so they become deliberate steps in certain manuvers, then of course some are just not strong enough, a lot want to look cool and pull up to stop lights one-handed, just genral stupid stuff. yeah I was getting cocky and doing one hand off the grip in heavy traffic, nearly dropped and was quick enough to snap my other hand onto the bars to keep it up, just some people get too comfortable and forget the steps on the low speed stuff, if you're not quick enough this is when you start droppin the bike. During the MSF I saw some girl drop the bike 3 times before she walked off the lot, she wasn't even strong enough to lift the bike back up, I mean there really should be a fitness requirement to riding or some type of balance/coordination exam. I think the most important aspect I didn't mention is that one knows their own limits and operates within them or exits the comfort zone in small amounts, I think if you're dropping the bike 4 times in the first 500 miles, a brand new bike mind you, that you should either hit the gym, get more sleep, or buy a cheaper bike- chances are the types of "drops" you are having will continue to happen unless you change some part of your low speed equation and the low speed factors really all require on strength, balance, and concentration. I have roughly 5k experience, mostly city riding but a good balance of highway in there too, I have never dropped low speed only times my bike has gone down are when it got hit or knocked over by the wind while it was parked and when I got rear ended. I've talked to guys that drop their bikes 4 times a year and I just base my findings upon what I see in them, just seems like a lack of focus and coordination, and yeah when you're on 2 wheels those are pretty important.


BTW- I am still a "new rider" I don't want anyone to think I am calling myself a vet or anything. I just think I have a very good aptitude for learning physical activities and riding very much is a physical activity especially on these small bikes at low speeds. I am constantly learning and improving, I think the only thing I hate so far about being on a motorcycle are the idiot drivers not paying attention. I also keep careful tabs on my budget and it really would put a sting on my wallet to drop the bike, partly that alone keeps the shiny side up! 


EDIT: forgot to mention, one time I was a little pissed about something and when I was pulling onto a main street cold weather and cold tires I got a really crazy fishtail going, totally accidental, probably looked cool but I was scared shit. I managed to somehow keep the bike up although I swear it felt like I had almost got thrown into a high-side, lesson learned was never bring emotions onto the bike especially in cold weather with cold tires.

With the Stupid laws that thankfully changed up here just recently (Queensland Australia), you could hold a car license for a couple of years, go do a simple half day course/test and you had an open bike license (No restriction)

Sadly it took 3 big accidents and the riders deaths before they decided these laws might not work
19-20 year old, first bike brand new R1, Lasted a couple of weeks, trying to do a stunt (Wheelie) on the highway, lost control of bike and was killed. The riding instructor doing the testing tried to convince him he was not indestructible and to slow down, but under the laws, if the guy passed the tests, he could not hold back his license. Irony is, the instructor wrote on his paperwork that if he didn't slow down and lose the attitude, he'd be dead within 6 months!

30+ year old, coming back to bikes after a period away, CBR1000RR, again, just got his license, told his riding buddies he owned a 600 6 or 7 years earlier, how much power could it have over the 600? First ride on a sunday morning with friends, drops away from the group, next thing he flies past them on a corner and plows into an embankment, they noted the brake light never came on, He target fixated and ploughed in. Died there in front of them.

21 year old on an R6 doing a high speed run up on the tablelands, lost control, hit a tree and was killed instantly, he had just picked up the bike 2 hours earlier.

Would lower powered bikes saved these guys lives? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know....
But handing the keys to a bike like the R1/Fireblade/Gixxer (or any bike of that amount of power including the 600's) to a beginner to me is just stupid and asking for trouble.

Limit the amount of power these guys have by restricting the cc's to begin with, they have just started that again here (you have to ride a 250 for a minimum of 12 months)  there were very few 250's being imported when the law came in, but now all the big Japanese companies are scrambling to bring in 250's to offer people a choice and a decent range.

But it proved the point, give a 20 year old an open bike license just because they have driven a car for 2 years, Its like giving a 2 year old a loaded gun to play with, it might be ok, but most likely it's going to end in pain and suffering...Or worse!

That's just my $0.02
Although with currency conversion that works out to roughly $0.016  

i dropped my bike old M900 1 time, had one low speed slide and one highspeed high side.

the first, was pretty early in ownership and no one told me about the false neutral situation. i hit the starter, let go of the clutch (not on the bike to warm it up) and the spring kickstand came up. BAM broken clutch level, bent shifter.  lesson learned. if i'm starting the bike off of it, i always grab the front brake til i am CERTAIN it's in neutral. oh and fix that damn kickstand.

second was a cold weather/ice/high idle situation- i was late for work and had the idler turned up, the ground was especially slick from mist/icing and when i went to pull up the road from the parking lot, the bike pancaked on my right ankle.  lesson learned, always wait til it's done warming up before taking off and be mindful of the cold, cause the ground is always colder.

third was a tank slapper- front end got light coming out of a long sweeper that had a bad pavement transition due to new construction. got tossed like a rag doll over the bars about 65-70 mph. broken collar bone and other minor stuff.  lesson learned, always wear gear which i always had, but this time saved my life. landed on my helmet and leathered elbow. and had i gotten another early monster i would have bought the steering damper.

i think all people have accidents, the severity of which is mitigated by our gear, tactics and responses.
I have better gear now than i did then. i have a bike that handles better and is better balanced. and i ride even more mindful of the road and its condition.  [moto]

oh and i would have original bought the bike i thought was a better fit for me, 750 ss, instead of being pressured to buy the 900 monster.

Quote from: CairnsDuc on October 11, 2008, 01:30:26 PM
With the Stupid laws that thankfully changed up here just recently (Queensland Australia), you could hold a car license for a couple of years, go do a simple half day course/test and you had an open bike license (No restriction)

Sadly it took 3 big accidents and the riders deaths before they decided these laws might not work
19-20 year old, first bike brand new R1, Lasted a couple of weeks, trying to do a stunt (Wheelie) on the highway, lost control of bike and was killed. The riding instructor doing the testing tried to convince him he was not indestructible and to slow down, but under the laws, if the guy passed the tests, he could not hold back his license. Irony is, the instructor wrote on his paperwork that if he didn't slow down and lose the attitude, he'd be dead within 6 months!

30+ year old, coming back to bikes after a period away, CBR1000RR, again, just got his license, told his riding buddies he owned a 600 6 or 7 years earlier, how much power could it have over the 600? First ride on a sunday morning with friends, drops away from the group, next thing he flies past them on a corner and plows into an embankment, they noted the brake light never came on, He target fixated and ploughed in. Died there in front of them.

21 year old on an R6 doing a high speed run up on the tablelands, lost control, hit a tree and was killed instantly, he had just picked up the bike 2 hours earlier.

Would lower powered bikes saved these guys lives? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know....
But handing the keys to a bike like the R1/Fireblade/Gixxer (or any bike of that amount of power including the 600's) to a beginner to me is just stupid and asking for trouble.

Limit the amount of power these guys have by restricting the cc's to begin with, they have just started that again here (you have to ride a 250 for a minimum of 12 months)  there were very few 250's being imported when the law came in, but now all the big Japanese companies are scrambling to bring in 250's to offer people a choice and a decent range.

But it proved the point, give a 20 year old an open bike license just because they have driven a car for 2 years, Its like giving a 2 year old a loaded gun to play with, it might be ok, but most likely it's going to end in pain and suffering...Or worse!

That's just my $0.02
Although with currency conversion that works out to roughly $0.016  

Sad to hear about these BUT in every example the guys were riding like idiots. I mean, to some degree is this not Darwinism? I see guys riding without lids all the time, they know the danger but they choose to be stupid. These guys are all grownups and they should have known better.

Part of me wanted a bike when I was 20, hell I had more money back then but I knew at the time I would end up being an idiot, almost like I was smart enough to talk myself out of it. I finally bought the bike at 27 because I wanted something nice and needed to have an escape from work. I also will say, before my bike arrived I probably spent 4 hours per day for a week watching crash videos, I also read "Proficient Motorcycling"- I really educated myself on the dangers then I took the MSF. I remember my roomate asked me why I was watching videos of people wiping out all the time, I replied "I am learning what not to do when I get my bike."

For all of us here on Earth it's our own responsibility to understand we are fragile, I feel bad these guys died riding but I also think they were all hazards and really not smart people.

When I first started riding I went on a few "group rides" and bike runs with the harley guys I know. After seeing how riding in a group can get dangerous I stopped doing it, I only ride alone now, last time I did a group ride there were these punks doing wheelies right over people's shoulders, I remember the fact they were being reckless made me too angry to enjoy the day. Too often people end up trying to keep up with the pack or they think it's all as easy as it looks, that's when people get themselves into trouble.
In those examples though I guess a low powered bike might have prevented the accidents, not really sure, but I can't see guys like this staying on a 250cc for a long time anyways, eventually these people would find a way to hurt themselves on something judging by the stories, it does suck though that they didn't have me around to show them crash videos all day, then I bet they would have been a little smarter... I watched so many crash videos and studied them it was almost an obsession... I know I don't have to say it but I just want to- ride safe out there  [moto]

Eesnas, Your riding alone away from the group is the exact reason I ride alone, I set my own pace, I avoid the dickheads who want to race and do stupid stuff, I change my mind on my direction and where I want to go, If I find a road I want to explore, Off I go.  But I digress

It's always the problem of much do you make the laws up to protect people from themselves, you will always get the Idiots who think they are indestructible and can do no wrong.

But the Sad part is when these people go out and do something wrong and smear themselves across the country side, we as a group cop the blame from the public and the the Guv-ment says we must protect these people who can't think for themselves, and new laws are introduced, some good, most bad.

The press got hold of it all over the state, more riders killed down south in the same state and we are labeled as stupid bike riders with a death wish, laws must be changed, Blah blah blah!

Then the minority groups join in, they propose speed limiters, front number plates, power restrictions, satellite tracking, people scoff at the suggestions, It will never happen they say.........

But then a secret report is leaked that 2 state Dept's are looking at front number plates and tracking systems for motorbikes (the Victorian and Queensland state Government Transport depts have both admitted to investigating these and many more options, The front number plate issue nearly made it into law!!!)

Do you suggest a high powered bike to a beginner? No, but you can't stop some people, some people have a death wish, they just don't know it!

The fundamental question will always remain, do you want the Guv-ment to place restrictions on new riders, start them off slow and with limited power with a good chance to learn or hope that people are smart enough to do the right thing and know when they approach a high powered bike to treat it with respect.

I know which one I prefer to happen, but sadly I know what is going to happen

Quote from: eesnas on October 11, 2008, 01:16:29 PM
See I think people are actually at the greatest risk of being hit from behind... Some guy posted something about the weight to HP ratio of a family sedan compaired to a bike, the thing is you should have a big multiple over the average car, you must ride aggressive to survive in traffic as the guy quoted above probably knows, being in NY etc... If your bike cannot move SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the flow of traffic you run the risk of being run over from behind by some girl in an SUV brushing her hair while talking on the phone and finding her favorite playlist on the I-pod, BOOM from behind you end up dead and she spills a latte  . the thing is the drivers behind you are the ones likely to do the most damage and without the available HP you can't avoid them. All bikes have brakes to stop you from danger ahead, of course the skill of the rider is needed to operate the brakes correctly to avoid hazards front-facing, for danger approaching from the rear I think it's important to almost always move faster than the general flow of traffic, otherwise you're at risk of being rear ended with every car that passes. I have seen slow riders almost get whaled so many times it's CRAZY and I got banged up sitting at a red light, it's really the biggest danger out there.

Personally I think if you find yourself in a situation where the only way out is to accelerate as fast as you can, you may have other issues. How did you get into that situation?

I've never once found myself in a place where the best thing I could do was twist the throttle as hard as I could. Some idiot coming up behind me *way* too fast? Change lanes. Someone not paying attention? Calmly pull away from them. Etc. It's all about reading the situations, and avoiding them before they happen. This comes with experience.

I know you have some experience with this, but for the record, when I'm sitting at a light-one eye is one the light and the other is watching the driver behind me until I pull away. No abundance or lack of power would've ever done anything to help you when you got rear-ended.