If he goes down, what will come of his legacy in the Tour?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-06-29/lance-armstrong-usada-formal-doping-charges/55924874/1 (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-06-29/lance-armstrong-usada-formal-doping-charges/55924874/1)
I would like to remind everyone that lance NEVER tested positive to anyting [thumbsup]
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on June 29, 2012, 07:01:37 PM
I would like to remind everyone that lance NEVER tested positive to anyting [thumbsup]
Read 'Optimum Sports Nutrition' Dr Michael Colgan said any biochemist worth his weight, can beat any drug test.. ;)
Even with drugs, winning 7 times in a row is a remarkable achievement. I was a big Lance fan circa 2000, and probably still would be despite the allegations if he didn't act like such a vindictive ass.
Livestrong is a great organization, and I'd be more worried about the effects on it. The past decade of TdF's have been so tainted with Landis, Contador, Armstrong, Festina, that no one will care, just like the steroid era of baseball.
My $.02 anyway.
I think that is 7 wins came more out of the fact that he was almost dead and now he is alive. [thumbsup]
gotta love the media....
folks put someone on a pedestal
and the news hands out the rocks and bottles for us to hurl at them
"USADA says it has at least 10 former Armstrong teammates and associates who will testify against the cyclist, and blood samples from 2009 and 2010 that are ‘‘fully consistent’’ with blood doping."
Quote from: kopfjäger on June 30, 2012, 11:43:15 PM
"USADA says it has at least 10 former Armstrong teammates and associates who will testify against the cyclist, and blood samples from 2009 and 2010 that are ‘‘fully consistent’’ with blood doping."
How much would it cost to get them to testify against a different cyclist?
Ancient (who cares) history if you ask me...[I know you didn't]
I'm betting he will beat the charges. The media glorifies and then destroys. I guess they can't let stand a hero for too long or they simply ran out of news worthy events.
The only thing I like about Lance these days is that he pisses of the French. I personally believe he doped. On the one hand I admire the guy for his come back against cancer, and on the other I despise him for dumping people when they in turn got sick.
if you Google Livestrong you will find that they no longer fund cancer research and seem to exist mainly to promote Lance himself.
I think his days are done.
Quote from: Greg on July 01, 2012, 12:32:24 PM
if you Google Livestrong you will find that they no longer fund cancer research and seem to exist mainly to promote Lance himself.
I think his days are done.
I did, the published numbers don't really support your statement.
http://www.livestrong.org/ (http://www.livestrong.org/)
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6570 (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=6570)
Try this one
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all)
Clean or full of gear, he still would have been champ. You cant take that away from him. Only a small minority are totally clean at the elite level in many sports. I know this from experience in strength sports. Had to choose between the size of my balls and the size of the trophies.
Not saying its right, just how it is.
Quote from: Greg on July 01, 2012, 03:08:26 PM
Try this one
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all)
It's an interesting article that brings up some questions, but almost everything in it could be spun any way you like.
Quote from: koko64 on July 01, 2012, 04:28:33 PM
Clean or full of gear, he still would have been champ. You cant take that away from him. Only a small minority are totally clean at the elite level in many sports. I know this from experience in strength sports. Had to choose between the size of my balls and the size of the trophies.
Not saying its right, just how it is.
+1. The guy accomplished something amazing, and he's using that fame to not only help himself but lots of other people, too.
My take on it is this...
Going after Lance in the manner that a number of agencies have/are will only result in a slap on the wrist, if that.
Marion Jones - 6 months.
Barry Bonds - 30 days house arrest.
Roger Clemens - Acquitted.
I'm sure there are others.
Time and resources are better spent elsewhere, IMHO.
While I dont approve of drug cheating in sport, I won't judge harshly.
Probity in not for profit organizations is another matter. Spose the jury is still out on that one as well.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on July 01, 2012, 06:18:43 PM
Time and resources are better spent elsewhere, IMHO.
I don't agree, if (IF) he has been lying about years of cheating the system, he should pay the price. Greg has said for many years that he was cheating.
Quote from: kopfjäger on July 01, 2012, 08:51:56 PM
I don't agree, if (IF) he has been lying about years of cheating the system, he should pay the price. Greg has said for many years that he was cheating.
There's clearly no love between Greg and Lance. Lemond himself is far from suspect. I don't think I'd trust one over the other.
I used to relish watching "Le Tour". Now I could care less, as feel it's all a farce. Ah well, more time to ride [Dolph]
Also suspect is, once again, the timing of these allegations - right before TdF starts.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on July 02, 2012, 05:27:27 AM
Also suspect is, once again, is the timing of these allegations - right before TdF starts.
that's the part i love about it most... [roll]
Quote from: D3vi@nt on July 01, 2012, 09:52:33 PM
There's clearly no love between Greg and Lance. Lemond himself is far from suspect. I don't think I'd trust one over the other.
Q4T
The die hard Lancers will never give in to the circumstantial/speculative evidence, and everyone else with their heads out of the sand have a pretty good idea of what happened. At this point, if there was a video of him sticking an EPO needle in his ass, I'm not sure I'd watch it.
Though I don't count myself as a die-hard Lance fan - I was very happy when he finally retired, and gave me back at least the possibility of an interesting Tour de France (can't say that's worked out all that great) - but I have long been in the camp that at least hoped the doping stories weren't true. These days, I'm having trouble caring as much as I once did.
Came across a recent article -
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/explainer/2012/06/lance_armstrong_charged_why_is_there_so_much_doping_in_professional_cycling_.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/explainer/2012/06/lance_armstrong_charged_why_is_there_so_much_doping_in_professional_cycling_.html)
that does a pretty good job of laying out a couple of things. One, that there are things unique to pro cycling that push riders to doping - the extreme endurance required, that it's a team endurance sport, that it's got a long and glorious tradition of behind-the-scenes pharmacology. And second, that any time you put a lot of money on the table in exchange for athletic performance, you have doping. The only question is whether or not you want to know about it and to try to put some limits on it. Name your sport, if there's an advantage to be found in a vial and if your testing regime isn't rigorous to the point of absurdity, then a substantial number of your athletes are juicing.
Hincapie, Leipheimer, Vande Velde, Zabriskie, serving 6 month bans for confessions and flipping on Lancy. Ruh Roh.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-hincapie-leipheimer-vande-velde-zabriskie-vaughters-give-evidence-against-armstrong (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-hincapie-leipheimer-vande-velde-zabriskie-vaughters-give-evidence-against-armstrong)
Quote from: stateprez on July 05, 2012, 06:52:02 AM
Hincapie, Leipheimer, Vande Velde, Zabriskie, serving 6 month bans for confessions and flipping on Lancy. Ruh Roh.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-hincapie-leipheimer-vande-velde-zabriskie-vaughters-give-evidence-against-armstrong (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-hincapie-leipheimer-vande-velde-zabriskie-vaughters-give-evidence-against-armstrong)
If the alleged bans are true (which all of the affected parties are denying), they are a crock.
A six month ban that will start after the major events have been held this season?
Something smells fishy.
lol... all this over bicycles.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on July 05, 2012, 12:03:22 PM
If the alleged bans are true (which all of the affected parties are denying), they are a crock.
A six month ban that will start after the major events have been held this season?
Something smells fishy.
follow the money. [evil]
Quote from: corey on July 06, 2012, 11:37:44 AM
lol... all this over bicycles.
"It's not about the bike"
and
it's not about the bike
Quote from: muskrat on July 06, 2012, 07:44:12 PM
follow the money. [evil]
Livestrong Lobbyist on USADA...."Cancer research" money hard at work.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303612804577531353567249064.html?mod=googlenews_wsj (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303612804577531353567249064.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)
Quote from: Stella on July 06, 2012, 09:35:02 PM
"It's not about the bike"
and
it's not about the bike
(http://rlv.zcache.com/i_see_what_you_did_there_poster-r8f044f42410c44898ead34192059346f_y1u_400.jpg)
Lance's second law suit is thrown out. USADA will continue the investigation.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/20/sport/lance-armstrong-lawsuit/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/20/sport/lance-armstrong-lawsuit/index.html)
EPO goes quickly away and leave no traces in the blood but a augmentation in blood cells count produce a certain type of protein ..that' how they find "cheater's" [roll]
for myself having to endure for a couple a years blood scanning in competition..... Knowing all the rigorous manipulation of the sample and how serious it is ...I mean, when you do the test the women that does the scan stand and looks right at you :o.... intimidating the first time but you get use to that ;D
I'm well place to know that whit 500 to 600 negative over 20 year.... I would doubt seriously that he was doped [thumbsdown]
Don't forget that most of theses test are "suprise" tests .... they came to the training track and the " Hi, I'm from the athletic federation "" I' here for a suprise test" " please pee in the cup " [laugh]
god times ... [roll]
stripped him of 7 titles and banned from the races.. -smh-
Always love reading ober dicta:
QuoteArmstrong sued USADA in Austin, where he lives, in an attempt to block the case and was supported by the UCI. A judge threw out the case on Monday, siding with USADA despite questioning the agency's pursuit of Armstrong in his retirement.
"USADA's conduct raises serious questions about whether its real interest in charging Armstrong is to combat doping, or if it is acting according to less noble motives," such as politics or publicity, U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks wrote.
[roll]
http://m.yahoo.com/w/ygo-frontpage/lp/story/us/2607922/coke.bp%3B_ylt=AucuUoFyEKiOAjUUrQInSUqx.tw4%3B_ylu=X3oDMTFzbHViYTI5BGNwb3MDMQRjc2VjA21vYmlsZS10ZARpbnRsA3VzBHBrZwNpZC0yNjA3OTIyBHBvcwMxBHNsawNpbWFnZQ--?ref_w=frontdoors&view=today&.intl=US&.lang=en&.tsrc=yahoo (http://m.yahoo.com/w/ygo-frontpage/lp/story/us/2607922/coke.bp%3B_ylt=AucuUoFyEKiOAjUUrQInSUqx.tw4%3B_ylu=X3oDMTFzbHViYTI5BGNwb3MDMQRjc2VjA21vYmlsZS10ZARpbnRsA3VzBHBrZwNpZC0yNjA3OTIyBHBvcwMxBHNsawNpbWFnZQ--?ref_w=frontdoors&view=today&.intl=US&.lang=en&.tsrc=yahoo)
Quote from: kopfjäger on June 29, 2012, 06:52:29 PMIf he goes down, what will come of his legacy in the Tour?
Quote from: cokey on August 23, 2012, 08:33:38 PM
stripped him of 7 titles and banned from the races.. -smh-
History will record that he did nothing.
Quote from: ungeheuer on August 24, 2012, 05:10:26 AM
History will record that he did nothing.
Nah, history will record plenty.
Can USADA even tell TdF to strip the medals? TdF already did their own investigation and turned up nothing. USADA doesn't oversee TdF. USADA has only existed since 2000 or so and he was winning medals before that. Even if they have jurisdiction, how can they go back before they existed?
USADA can't strip the titles/records themselves, but they may be able to force UCI to do so under the world anti-doping pact that both parties have signed onto. It will be interesting to see how it pans out, as UCI (surprisingly) has been standing in Lance's corner so far...
Can't say I blame Mr. Armstrong from throwing in the towel. The anti-doping agency has been after him since 1999 and have yet to find that he doped.
I am sure the testimony and comments from Floyd Lantis are very credible considering his A and B samples were both positive for doping.
It's nice to see Lance is going to focus on the Livestrong Foundation instead of concentrating on the wild goose chase. Good for him.
//Hunter\\
C'mon Lance, you're just gonna give up?! Well then I guess we know the truth. [bang]
Quote from: kopfjäger on August 24, 2012, 07:58:26 AM
C'mon Lance, you're just gonna give up?! Well then I guess we know the truth. [bang]
USADA say they're going to make all evidence public when the time is right (soon).
Then it won't be up to a court to judge - it will be up to us.
I think that's a smart move from him - he leaves it for us to decide and we will, as throughout his career, believe or hate.
Personally, I think he's clean and that his victories are based less on him being a superior rider and more on the team and it's 100% focus on Lance winning the TdF.
Quote from: kopfjäger on August 24, 2012, 07:58:26 AM
C'mon Lance, you're just gonna give up?! Well then I guess we know the truth. [bang]
How do you figure since he never tested positive?
//Hunter\\
Quote from: JaxSurfer on August 24, 2012, 08:40:46 AM
How do you figure since he never tested positive?
//Hunter\\
Because the TdF people said so.
"The drug tests were gathered as Armstrong prepared for his highly-publicized Tour de France comeback. No positive tests ever were announced from the events he raced or during out-of-competition training.
Had Armstrong tested positive, he would've immediately been suspended and his drug samples retested for verification, if he'd asked for an appeal."
The UCI said today that it was awaiting the official report from USADA before taking any action. I don't envy them the decision - yes, there's a lot of credible eye-witness testimony under oath (not just Landis & Hamilton, but Hincapie, Andreau & others - pretty much a who's-who of my U.S. bike heros :( ), but there's not a positive test in the record. So the UCI wipes Armstrong off the TdF record books and elevates number two to number one - and then you have names like Zulle, Ulrich & Basso bringing their various doping bans up into the number one slot. Where do you stop?
I hope the Tour says ... "USADA... you're wrong, his titles stay."
Quote from: Raux on August 24, 2012, 09:35:57 AM
I hope the Tour says ... "USADA... you're wrong, his titles stay."
+1!
This whole thing just seems like a vindictive attack on Lance.
I was really hoping he was going to hold strong and not allow the USADA to bully him.
No matter what anyone says Lance is an amazing athlete. [bow_down]
I'm sure he has many triathlon accolades in his future.
Here's the thing that gets me. The same thing they are accusing him of, others have been caught doing, the failed their tests, so why did he never fail a test... oh yeah cause he didn't cheat.
http://blog.charleslloydfitness.com/2011/05/23/professional-cyclist-drugs/ (http://blog.charleslloydfitness.com/2011/05/23/professional-cyclist-drugs/)
http://bikepure.org/resources/list-of-banned-substances/types-of-drugs-and-methods-used-in-cycling/ (http://bikepure.org/resources/list-of-banned-substances/types-of-drugs-and-methods-used-in-cycling/)
I wonder if the USADA realizes that the vast majority of the public doesn't care if he doped or not. I couldn't do what he does even if I was on drugs. UFC, NFL, MLB, bodybuilding, track and field, and just about every other sport you can name. They all dope and I don't give a crap.
Quote from: kopfjäger on August 24, 2012, 10:10:03 AM
http://blog.charleslloydfitness.com/2011/05/23/professional-cyclist-drugs/ (http://blog.charleslloydfitness.com/2011/05/23/professional-cyclist-drugs/)
http://bikepure.org/resources/list-of-banned-substances/types-of-drugs-and-methods-used-in-cycling/ (http://bikepure.org/resources/list-of-banned-substances/types-of-drugs-and-methods-used-in-cycling/)
Have you read 'about' the source of that article...come on...
http://www.charleslloydfitness.com/about/ (http://www.charleslloydfitness.com/about/)
Quote from: ungeheuer on August 24, 2012, 05:10:26 AM
History will record that he did nothing.
history will recall that Ulrich who tested positeve and some other guy that tested positivetoo will become the tour the France winners ......
Yeah strip a the titles from a guy who never tested positive to people how actually tested positive ....
the irony [bang]
Whe just have to ask Sheryl Crow if she even seen some seringe in the freezer ... ;D
Quote from: triangleforge on August 24, 2012, 09:19:29 AM
The UCI said today that it was awaiting the official report from USADA before taking any action. I don't envy them the decision - yes, there's a lot of credible eye-witness testimony under oath (not just Landis & Hamilton, but Hincapie, Andreau & others - pretty much a who's-who of my U.S. bike heros :( ), but there's not a positive test in the record. So the UCI wipes Armstrong off the TdF record books and elevates number two to number one - and then you have names like Zulle, Ulrich & Basso bringing their various doping bans up into the number one slot. Where do you stop?
Change the story to an accused murderer, all of the witnesses are convicted criminals, the DNA evidence says no, but all of the witnesses say yes.
Seems to me we have a preference for laboratory testing over witnesses when available. The tests were multiple sample tests and multiple retesting. And still no doping evidence.
Quote from: ducatiz on August 24, 2012, 12:32:29 PM
Change the story to an accused murderer, all of the witnesses are convicted criminals, the DNA evidence says no, but all of the witnesses say yes.
Seems to me we have a preference for laboratory testing over witnesses when available. The tests were multiple sample tests and multiple retesting. And still no doping evidence.
and how many times have eyewitness convictions been overturned with physical evidence
in this case the physical evidence shows no doping. its not like the evidence isn't there
Nike says:
http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/24/13456962-lance-armstrong-is-still-our-man-nike-says?lite (http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/24/13456962-lance-armstrong-is-still-our-man-nike-says?lite)
I think there is a good chance USADA is going to come out worse for this...
Quote from: Raux on August 24, 2012, 09:35:57 AM
I hope the Tour says ... "USADA... you're wrong, his titles stay."
+1
mitt
If you're not cheating you're not trying, if you get caught you're not trying hard enough. ;)
Quote from: mitt on August 24, 2012, 01:43:39 PM
+1
mitt
[thumbsup] [clap] [bacon]
The French press has hated Lance since 1999 for winning "their" Tour. How in the world could he have successfully passed untold hundreds of dope tests when other riders, having to go through the same tests, were found to be positive for PED. Don't you think in this goofy ass world we live in that some "black bag" French operator for the Tour could have doped his dope test and made it positive? How hard would that have been?
And how in the hell does some lame ass US sports anti-dope organization lay claim to "stripping" Lance of his 7 Tour titles? What make the beast with two backsing authority do they have over an UCI race based in France. Hell... even the UCI is on Lance's side!!
The level of bullshit to this witch hunt has no end. It is so one sided it's almost obscene! I can see why Lance has thrown in the towel. How do you win this witch hunt with all the odds stacked against you? I'd probably say make the beast with two backs it too. Enough is enough.
They have produced zero evidence... none, nada, zip. If they had any legit shit on Lance don't you think they would publically released it to the press to back him into a corner? They have only the "alledged" future testimony of old, disgruntled teammates who have had their own doping issues... think that BS helped Floyd Landis sell a few more of his wanker books? What a complete limp dick moron! And that's one of the people the Fed's case rests on? Give me a break!! He's the only doper that should have been stripped of his Tour title. Thankfully he was! And he's still trying to make $$ off of his "Positively False" paperback. I wouldn't let that loser mow my lawn much less believe his testimony against Lance.
This makes me want to mail a check to the Livestrong organization! I don't give a shit about his Tour wins. His help in the fight against cancer is 100 times more important than any bicycle race.
End of rant...
ah ehm.....French hate everyone. 8)
Quote from: muskrat on August 24, 2012, 10:15:02 PM
ah ehm.....French hate everyone. 8)
I believe this is a reciprocal arrangement with the rest of the planet
Quote from: DesmoDiva on August 24, 2012, 09:42:00 AM
I'm sure he has many triathlon accolades in his future.
I don't think so. Not any big triathlons, anyway. He can't race in anything covered by USADA.
It still amazes me that the FDA, with all of its resources, had to drop its case due to lack of evidence but USADA can proceed with their case.
Quote from: muskrat on August 24, 2012, 10:15:02 PM
ah ehm.....French hate everyone. 8)
This is as true....
Quote from: RAT900 on August 24, 2012, 11:22:00 PM
I believe this is a reciprocal arrangement with the rest of the planet
... as this is hilarious (and also true) [laugh]
Quote from: Dannyboy on August 25, 2012, 06:37:46 AM
I don't think so. Not any big triathlons, anyway. He can't race in anything covered by USADA.
It still amazes me that the FDA, with all of its resources, had to drop its case due to lack of evidence but USADA can proceed with their case.
The FDA witch-hunt budget was axed due to the recession :P
Good article
http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8285172/judge-dismisses-lance-armstrong-lawsuit-vs-us-anti-doping-agency (http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8285172/judge-dismisses-lance-armstrong-lawsuit-vs-us-anti-doping-agency)
or could it be the usada is about to declare bankruptcy and they need press to generate funds? notice I didn't capitalize the acronym for lack of respect. ;D
I dont understand, he never tested positive.
Have I missed something in all this?
I wonder whats really going on? It seems like Armstrong has been found guilty on the testimony of drug cheats trying to save their arses. About as reliable as prisoner testimony in order to cut a deal.
Did they retest his samples with newer tech? Do they store the samples to test retrospectively?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-takes-second-in-mountain-bike-race-in-colorado.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-takes-second-in-mountain-bike-race-in-colorado.html)
Quote from: kopfjäger on August 27, 2012, 05:01:03 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-takes-second-in-mountain-bike-race-in-colorado.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-takes-second-in-mountain-bike-race-in-colorado.html)
Our big local race, the Whiskey Off-Road has the biggest one-day purse for a MTB race in the world (or did last year...), and is not sanctioned by NORBA or USACycling. Floyd Landis won it the year after he got popped, so I guess I can look forward to watching Lance Armstrong come storming by on the long climb out of Skull Valley in 2013 - if, that is, I'm fast enough to be descending that 12 mile stretch while he's made the turn and is heading back up.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120825,0,2080853.column?page=1 (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120825,0,2080853.column?page=1)
can I then start taking down company execs because of things I "saw" happen at strip clubs? I was the only outsider but I saw it........wait I'm unreliable for being there too. [bang] this is bullshit all the way around. I hope the entire cycling world rally with him and to boot boycott all Tour de France........period.
Quote from: muskrat on August 27, 2012, 11:27:33 PM
I hope the entire cycling world rally with him
Never going to happen.
Quote from: muskrat on August 27, 2012, 11:27:33 PM
boycott all Tour de France........
Definitely never going to happen.
the fact that they have all these 'witnesses' shows that the cyclists don't care about Lance anymore now that he's not carrying them.
Had he stuck with the team and not his own organization I could have seen these 'eye witness' accounts never even have happened.
Quote from: zooom on August 27, 2012, 06:34:03 PM
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120825,0,2080853.column?page=1 (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120825,0,2080853.column?page=1)
Good article. [thumbsup]
Interesting perspective. I hadn't thought of it this way, but it does appear to be a blatant double standard:
The same people lining up to brand Lance Armstrong a cheater will worship a pitcher who undergoes Tommy John transplant surgery to save his career. The Oakland A's Bartolo Colon will be missing 50 games for taking testosterone, but what about the batters he's faced who have had their eyeballs surgically refabricated with Lasik so they can read his pitches better? Is the rule that it's OK to enhance your performance by scalpel but not by hypodermic needle?
USADA report/proof/.... out today (just heard on CNN, don't know any details)
What little info I could find:
http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/lance-armstrong-united-states-anti-doping-agency-report-teammates-testified-101012 (http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/lance-armstrong-united-states-anti-doping-agency-report-teammates-testified-101012)
It will be great to read the whole report.
funny how there is still no "evidence"
I do like the theory of blood transfusion though. ;)
Haven't read the article, but blood transfusions aren't anything new in the pro peleton.
Read Hamilton's book. The logistics for blood bags is mind boggling. Tyler believes his was contaminated with another rider's blood when his doctor was mixing preservatives before the Olympics.
Apparently during one of his Tours a couple of the riders (Ullrich, Vino, Basso) using his doctor (Ufe) all transfused expired bags and got sick.
I'm guessing today was a bad day for Lancey- it will be interesting to see how he acts towards Hincapie now.
The Sport is full of drug users and blood dopers, maybe they can clean it up. Lance could help them with that. He knows the deal.
There still is no proof, just the same as said before, 'witnesses' except they've released their testimonies.
Oh, and now they are taking Lance's "I'm not dealing with this BS so I'm not fighting it" as an admitance of guilt
For those that want to read the document being discussed.
http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/ipt/2012.12.10_Armstrong_Doping_Reasoned+Decision_all.1.pdf (http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/ipt/2012.12.10_Armstrong_Doping_Reasoned+Decision_all.1.pdf)
USADA has really lost all credibility.
They require that participants be blood tested.
But here they have ignored the results of the blood tests that they require in favor of testimony and expert witnesses. Can you imagine if a judge refused to allow DNA evidence in a murder trial? In favor of testimony and expert witnesses?
Even if the asshole at USADA really truly believes Armstrong doped, he should have simply dropped it given the damage this will do to USADA.
I have an entire wing of my family that competitively bikes -- none of them believe USADA's report.
They titled the report "REASONED DECISION OF THE UNITED STATES ANTI-DOPING AGENCY".. they might have well have titled it "GOD'S OWN HAND WROTE THIS" because it would be equally untrue.
What's funny is how they wrote it up to look like a lawsuit on the first page. Puffery.
+1 Ducatiz
USADA..... [laugh]
http://flcx.org/usada-at-florida-mtb-race/ (http://flcx.org/usada-at-florida-mtb-race/)
MTN Bike race in Fla. = oxymoron [laugh]
It was a cyclocross race, not mtb. ;)
The whole indecent is hilarious.
Who runs the USADA? The gov't?
Quote from: DesmoDiva on October 12, 2012, 05:23:02 AM
Who runs the USADA? The gov't?
Yes, the Armstrong criminal investigation was stopped by US Attorney Andre Birotte. He was appointed by the President.
Quote from: DesmoDiva on October 12, 2012, 05:23:02 AM
It was a cyclocross race, not mtb. ;)
The whole indecent is hilarious.
Who runs the USADA? The gov't?
No. It is a privately run company funded by the various sport programs. They have been recognized by Congress as its representative for the Olympics program to root out doping. No other connection.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 12, 2012, 06:36:00 AM
No other connection.
They receive funding from the ONDCP....
QuoteUnited States Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner yesterday released the details of a letter sent to the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) regarding the distribution of $9 million worth of funding allocated to the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA).
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/us-congressman-questions-role-of-usada-in-armstrong-case (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/us-congressman-questions-role-of-usada-in-armstrong-case)
Sand castle continues to crumble.....
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13065/Liggett-admits-he-now-finds-it-very-difficult-not-to-believe-Armstrong-took-drugs.aspx#ixzz29NAw0NAK (http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13065/Liggett-admits-he-now-finds-it-very-difficult-not-to-believe-Armstrong-took-drugs.aspx#ixzz29NAw0NAK)
All the logic and witness testimony in the world shouldn't matter where they have blood tests.
USADA simply can't get around that problem.
If they are going to require drug testing with blood tests, and then they are going to ignore the blood tests in favor of testimony, then they should fold up and quit. They have no credibility.
it's scary to think that only witness testimony is enough to convict you.
The criminal investigation is over, not to mention the heart of it was a RICO over federal funds via US Postal being used for drugs- not over what Lance put in his body.
The problem is with the UCI, not USADA. They knew people were beating the tests and did nothing about it- the hemocrit test was a joke....basically dope to the point <=50 and you're free and clear.
The real fallout will be over the people who made millions off of Lance- ie Trek, Carmichael, etc. Trek supposedly dropped the Lemond line of bikes because Greg was outspoken with allegations about Armstrong's drug use.
Quote from: muskrat on October 15, 2012, 07:08:08 AM
it's scary to think that only witness testimony is enough to convict you.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/ (http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/)
Over 300 convictions based on testimony, all overturned with lab evidence.
If they are going to rely on blood testing, they should full stop with it. If the tests aren't good enough then make them better, but to go back in time to punish someone who complied?
utter absurdity.
Maybe they should go back to the older races.. maybe dig up a few race winners from the 1800s and test their bones for banned substances.. WAIT.. they don't have to do that, just interview somepeople and see.
Sad state of events, regardless he's guilty in public and career ruined even if the proof doesn't exist. what really upsets me about today's legal and media world is that the old "having your day in court" saying no longer applies. You are guilty if the press gets it and that's that.
Even If he was doped ..he still won brilliantly in front of other racers' that where doped .... so he's still the winner for me [thumbsup]
here's the thing that gets me in all this.
the standard is, pass the tests, you're legal.
why change the standard just to go after Lance?
Quote from: Raux on October 15, 2012, 01:23:05 PM
here's the thing that gets me in all this.
the standard is, pass the tests, you're legal.
why change the standard just to go after Lance?
[thumbsup]
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on October 15, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
Even If he was doped ..he still won brilliantly in front of other racers' that where doped .... so he's still the winner for me [thumbsup]
And that is pretty much what the average Joe/Jane thinks...
The standard IS more than just to pass tests.
Athletes have been suspended for not making themselves available for testing, among other reasons.
I'm still not convinced he's guilty and I think USADA should have to do more than refer to what others said.
I like the principle of innocent until proven guilty.
BUT - to proclaim him a hero (even if doped) because some of his competitors (also?) cheated is not very smart IMO.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-did-nike-pay-dollar-500000-to-verbruggen-to-cover-up-armstrong-positive (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-did-nike-pay-dollar-500000-to-verbruggen-to-cover-up-armstrong-positive)
Quote“In the months or years to come there will be a lot of stuff, probably, revealed. It’s not going to be just a black period for doping. … He’s destroyed people. If you go against him he tries to destroy you. He’s been trying that for 10 years with me.â€
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/must-hear-greg-lemond-speaks-out-in-wide-ranging-interview-on-irish-radio_256161 (http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/news/must-hear-greg-lemond-speaks-out-in-wide-ranging-interview-on-irish-radio_256161)
Quote from: stopintime on October 16, 2012, 12:51:51 PM
BUT - to proclaim him a hero (even if doped) because some of his competitors (also?) cheated is not very smart IMO.
Yes I Know... the point that I was making was not well express.... I was saying that doping is not fair .... and it should be condemned ! But I've seen is race's thru the years and he won his tour the France whit " panache" !!
As an ex-national level athlete (10,000m) I add my fair share of people getting "my place" because they where latter find doped... [bang] [bang]
and being tested myself for doping ( because of competitions) I can say that if it don't shows up in the blood ...well...there's nothing there ..!!! those test are rigorous and extremely precise and leave no place for error
so all the USADA story is a full bunch of @#@!#$#%
QuoteItalian police tapped phones and seemed to have planted listening devices on Bertagnolli as he visited Dr Ferrari for tests and doping advice.
QuoteBertagnolli claimed in his statement that Dr Ferrari explained how to avoid testing positive for EPO by taking micro doses of the drug injected into a vein while at an altitude training camp in St Moritz.
QuoteBertagnolli also detailed how Ferrari explained how to blood dope following the introduction of the ADAMS whereabouts protocol that improved out of competition anti-doping controls.
Quote"He advised me how to do the transfusions, saying to take out the blood before going to altitude and then putting it back after altitude, so to better justify the changes in haematocrit and reticolytes, etc."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-documents-reveal-details-of-dr-ferraris-doping-skills (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-documents-reveal-details-of-dr-ferraris-doping-skills)
QuoteThe hundreds of pages of evidence against Ferrari include details of payments to a Swiss bank account. Armstrong’s payments total over one million dollars between 1996 and 2006, with annual payments of between $75,000 and $110,000 but Ferrari claims they are for consultancy work.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferrari-hits-back-at-usada-doping-accusations (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferrari-hits-back-at-usada-doping-accusations)
Knowing how to do it is not a proof of guilt...... everything that you describe there I general knowledge among hi level athlete since the mid 70' (micro-doses, blood tansfusions)
the question is not if they know how to do it because every hi level athlete know how to cheat !!
the question is did he did it or not ?
P.s 110 000K is the regular price for having a private physician to help you in your training
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on October 16, 2012, 02:10:47 PM
P.s 110 000K is the regular price for having a private physician to help you in your training
So....if you were the most successful cyclist in history, and you maintain that
you were the ONLY clean athlete in a field full of cheaters, why would you choose the most notorious dope doctor in cycling when you could have anyone for that "regular price?"
Do you think that the current Tour de France winner, and outspoken PED opponent, Bradley Wiggins, would go within 100 miles of Michele Ferrari?
QuoteIn 1994, Ferrari was the team doctor for Gewiss. The team had an excellent season, winning many races. In the Flèche Wallonne, the team realized a historic triple victory. Concerned by the domination of the Italian team, some observers pointed a finger of suspicion at the team doctor. Far from calming this controversy, Ferrari compared erythropoietin to orange juice. "EPO is not dangerous, it's the abuse that is. It's also dangerous to drink 10 liters of orange juice".[2] This statement cost him his job as team physician. But his reputation was made, and his name thereafter was associated with use of EPO in particular. In 1995, Ferrari started his own private medical practice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Ferrari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Ferrari)
Lance was not in a full pack of cheaters not every athlete drug themselves and it's not every cyclist that make use of EPO.
I'll give you that your entirely untitled to your opinion :)
Whit all the shit that he's been thrue in this USADA scandal .... he always denies it. Anybody who as that king of pressure from the media and scrutiny from the drug agencies they
brake up and they admit
the thing is that we will never know. we can speculate but we can never be sure
Only him knows
... If he's proud and knowing that he did it whitout drug well in is head he did won several tour De France.... They can take away is tittle's but they will not take away the pride he has for himself.
but if he drug himself and won ... I'll just have to live whit the notion that he is a cheater and he will have to look at is "face of a cheater " everytime he wake up in the morning ....until he brake's... :o
untimely it's only I'm that knows
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on October 16, 2012, 04:22:23 PM
Lance was not in a full pack of cheaters not every athlete drug themselves and it's not every cyclist that make use of EPO.
Riiiight. That's why the race director says they won't name a winner if Lance's titles are taken.
Quote"What we would like is for there to be no winner in those years," said Prudhomme, who added that there was damning evidence for "a system and an era."
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-tour-de-france-armstrong-20121013,0,1457913.story (http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-tour-de-france-armstrong-20121013,0,1457913.story)
EPO is old news (testosterone was also popular). Blood transfusions are the new standard- have been for years.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Secret-Race-Cover-ups-Winning/dp/0345530411 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Secret-Race-Cover-ups-Winning/dp/0345530411)
I have avoided this thread because I'm an ex bike racer and a fan of Lance. I'll just say this... I have been so disgusted with pro cycling the last several years because of all the doping. Goes all the way to back Tommy Simpson dying on the Mont Ventoux climb in the '67 Tour. "Put me back on my bike" will always remind me of Simpson. There's a statue there now in his honor. But there is no honor in cheating and doping to gain success. Whether it's the Tour or home runs in the MLB.
Call it naive but I would like to think Lance didn't cheat. If he did he was damn good at it to have passed all the tests that other cyclists failed.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/apnewsbreak-lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-charity/2012/10/17/8990ff92-1852-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/apnewsbreak-lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-charity/2012/10/17/8990ff92-1852-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_story.html)
Nike...out.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nike-terminate-armstrongs-contract (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nike-terminate-armstrongs-contract)
QuoteNike has has announced it has terminated Lance Armstrong’s contract because of the “seemingly insurmountable evidence that Lance Armstrong participated in doping and misled Nike for more than a decade.â€
Trek, Anheuser Busch, FRS out as well. Oakley still stands, but they have other issues with an employee threatening Betsy Andreu.
http://fox6now.com/2012/10/17/trek-lance-armstrong/ (http://fox6now.com/2012/10/17/trek-lance-armstrong/)
UCI will likely take his TdF titles, then civil suits over contract bonuses will start. I wouldn't expect a confession before civil suits are settled.
"Given the determinations of the report"
WTF does that mean?
alright... i want this across the board in all sports where these items are banned
all NFL titles will be stripped for at least the last 30 years
all Baseball for the last 20
etc. etc.
we all know they did it, testing negative or not.
Interesting only Vick and Armstrong have ever been "terminated" by Nike, while other doped athletes simply weren't renewed.
QuoteRodriguez, Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin â€" they all used PEDs, and they all stayed on Nike's books until their contracts expired.
It takes something extraordinary to get terminated by Nike. Only Michael Vick and now Armstrong have ever managed to do it.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/reason-why-nike-fired-lance-armstrong-2012-10#ixzz29bLwyBtm (http://www.businessinsider.com/reason-why-nike-fired-lance-armstrong-2012-10#ixzz29bLwyBtm)
I work out the Lance Armstrong 24 Hour Fitness here in Austin. You think 24 Hour will follow along with Nike?
Quote from: IZ on October 17, 2012, 08:39:53 PM
I work out the Lance Armstrong 24 Hour Fitness here in Austin. You think 24 Hour will follow along with Nike?
24 Hour Fitness. Health clubs. Corporate comment: "Given the evidence surrounding Lance Armstrong's alleged actions, we have determined that our business relationship with Armstrong no longer aligns with our company's mission and values. Over the coming weeks, we plan to remove the Lance Armstrong brand from our six co-branded fitness clubs and further improve these facilities to enable and inspire our members to achieve their fitness goals." (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h0EvyrVTIraQt2AP9duq71dot6GQ?docId=d7becfa5f9da4ba1b2504f2172dac031)
:-X
Thanks for the info D
This ship is going down fast.....
Bruyneel proceedings to start in Belgium
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bruyneel-vows-to-continue-fight-against-usada-charges (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bruyneel-vows-to-continue-fight-against-usada-charges)
Italian press reporting on widespread money laundering by Ferrari
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gazzetta-reveals-scale-of-doping-and-money-laundering-under-dr-ferrari (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gazzetta-reveals-scale-of-doping-and-money-laundering-under-dr-ferrari)
Lance possibly facing criminal charges in Spain
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/spains-attorney-general-to-launch-criminal-proceedings-against-armstrong (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/spains-attorney-general-to-launch-criminal-proceedings-against-armstrong)
I wonder where Lance is? Hopefully on a beach in Thailand somewhere....
Edit: Reportedly Oakley is waiting on the verdict of the UCI with regards to Lance sponsorship. Radio Shack is out as well.
The beginning of the end. (Sorry if this is derby)
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/inquiry-into-tattooed-guy-put-lance-armstrong-case-in-motion-281282 (http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/inquiry-into-tattooed-guy-put-lance-armstrong-case-in-motion-281282)
Quote from: Ducatamount on October 18, 2012, 09:21:14 AM
The beginning of the end. (Sorry if this is derby)
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/inquiry-into-tattooed-guy-put-lance-armstrong-case-in-motion-281282 (http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/inquiry-into-tattooed-guy-put-lance-armstrong-case-in-motion-281282)
I emailed this to a former Pro 1/2 buddy of mine and this is what he replied:
Quoteyeah, I remember racing against that guy, you'll have to ask Ben **** about Crit nationals up in Chicago the year that jackass won. Not 100 yards from the finish he and one of his team mates were hiding behind a tree and the dude was peeing for him in a cup.
http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/scimedemail/la-ed-armstrong-foundation-20121019,0,6961834.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/scimedemail/la-ed-armstrong-foundation-20121019,0,6961834.story)
ICU has sided with the USADA, and stripped Lance of his titles and served him a life ban.
le Tour board will likely do the same. :-\
Lover or hater, it is very sad day for the cycling world. :'(
Quote from: DesmoDiva on October 22, 2012, 05:09:37 AM
le Tour board will likely do the same. :-\
Prudhomme is having a press conference later today. Presumably to declare no winner 1999-2005.
I'm guessing SCA will sue again for the contract bonuses paid. It will be interesting to see if any other sponsors go after bonuses.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling-big-reveal-of-cancer-jesus-3266380.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling-big-reveal-of-cancer-jesus-3266380.html)
video and story is interesting
mitt
International Cycling Union (UCI) President Pat McQuaid said in Geneva he was "sickened" by the USDA findings, adding, "Lance Armstrong has no place in cycling.… He deserves to be forgotten."
McQuaid's comments are insulting. He was a total enabler in all of this.
Corruption in the UCI is the final domino that needs to fall.
Oakley is out now as well.
Quote from: stateprez on October 22, 2012, 05:57:03 PM
McQuaid's comments are insulting. He was a total enabler in all of this.
Corruption in the UCI is the final domino that needs to fall.
Oakley is out now as well.
+1
The slander lawsuit McQuad has against Paul Kimmage is a joke at this point.
mitt
Here's the thing,
sponsors paid for exposure during the race.
they got it.
how can they ask for the money back?
Quote from: Raux on October 23, 2012, 07:23:24 AM
Here's the thing,
sponsors paid for exposure during the race.
they got it.
how can they ask for the money back?
because you are using common sense...and they feel slighted and therefore common sense went out the window because money is involved!...but I do agree with you.
Quote from: zooom on October 23, 2012, 08:14:59 AM
because you are using common sense...and they feel slighted and therefore common sense went out the window because money is involved!...but I do agree with you.
+1
Quote from: Raux on October 23, 2012, 07:23:24 AM
Here's the thing,
sponsors paid for exposure during the race.
they got it.
how can they ask for the money back?
The question is over victory bonuses, not all contract payments.
The original SCA lawsuit was over $12 million for an insurance payment taken out by his team, for his contract bonus with the team for winning 7
consecutive tours. AKA he was due from the team $2 million for winning 2 in a row, $4 million for 3 in a row, etc.
Lance won that suit, if I understand it correctly, because doping would not nullify a victory under the clauses of the contract. Now that he didn't win, period, he's probably going to lose/settle.
Pure speculation on my part, but I'd think he has victory/stage win bonuses with all of his sponsors that are independent of a traditional sponsorship payment. Aka they're still paying for their exposure.
If you're interested in killing a couple of hours on this, Lance's entire deposition in the '05 SCA case has been posted on YouTube. They explain the bonuses in part 1, and I think part 2 is where the Betsy Andreu/doping questioning begins.
1 of 10:
lance01 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC7bH_6S7gs&feature=player_embedded#)
so where the hell is the evidence? did I miss a link somewhere???
no evidence, just accusations and 'bought' testimonies
There is NONE!!!
It's all hear say.
that's the impression I've been under from the get-go. THis is exactly what scares the shit out of me, no concrete evidence. No question Lance is an asshole by all accounts and acts like one too but that's not incriminating by itself. What are people's thoughts on why he hasn't fought it? And lets keep aside the comments of because he's guilty.
Quote from: muskrat on October 23, 2012, 12:52:19 PM
that's the impression I've been under from the get-go. THis is exactly what scares the shit out of me, no concrete evidence. No question Lance is an asshole by all accounts and acts like one too but that's not incriminating by itself. What are people's thoughts on why he hasn't fought it? And lets keep aside the comments of because he's guilty.
he said she said and no way anything Lance says will matter, he knows that. PLUS IMO his passed tests prove all he can prove.
Seen on FaceBook:
"Lance Armstrong, 7 time Tour Champion on a level playing field."
Additionally, if they keep going with this nonsense....
Nobody will give a make the beast with two backs whether the sport is clean or not,
because there will be no sponsors,
so no money,
so no television coverage,
and the sport will implode to a club-level hobby.
What he said^! [thumbsup]
Quote from: Speeddog on October 23, 2012, 01:08:41 PM
"Lance Armstrong, 7 time Tour Champion on a level playing field."
.
[thumbsup] exactly [thumbsup]
It is important to remember that Lance was investigated and brought in to a 'trial' of sorts before. And like before there is no evidence directly linking him to this accusation, only hearsay and flimsy 'evidence', if you want to call it that. I for one am glad that Lance has vowed to join the fight to look for Nicole Brown Simpson's Murders and won't stop until he finds them...oh wait. Sorry, I got OJ and Lance mixed up. Totally different.
lulz.
I've just started biking, and regardless of whether he used banned performance enhancing drugs, (I do believe that he used. I do not hold it against him however.) its the responsibility of the governing body to carry out the tests in a timely matter and to discipline in the same. 7 time champ and several years later, they finally say we have enough evidence to strip him of his wins. Look at what baseball did to Ryan Braun. If a sport is going to ban a substance, then they need to be able to run tests and hold people accountable. If the testing process is flawed, you cannot hold it against the athlete. You don't tell someone to piss in a cup and then allow him to come and go as he pleases.
Miguel Indurain (5 time winner of ) spoke in support of Lance [thumbsup]
And so did the Aspen Art Museum!
(I could care less one way or the other.) ;)
It's the UCI, not a government affiliated criminal investigation. The burden of proof is at their discretion, which all professional cyclists agree to as pro license holders.
So, if Lance is innocent and all of his teammates are guilty, why wouldn't he sit down with USADA and detail the events in question as his teammates have?
IE, "In 1999 I, Lance Armstrong, saw Tyler Hamilton take a testosterone egg," or "In 2003 I, Lance Armstrong, witnessed Floyd Landis infuse a blood bag on the 2nd rest day of the Tour."
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on October 23, 2012, 02:44:51 PM
Miguel Indurain (5 time winner of ) spoke in support of Lance [thumbsup]
Indurain's preface to his comments:
QuoteThe five-time Tour winner said that he had not followed the Armstrong saga closely and that “I don’t know a lot about it.â€
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/indurain-thinks-armstrong-will-appeal (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/indurain-thinks-armstrong-will-appeal)
Quote from: stateprez on October 24, 2012, 06:57:14 AM
It's the UCI, not a government affiliated criminal investigation. The burden of proof is at their discretion, which all professional cyclists agree to as pro license holders.
So, if Lance is innocent and all of his teammates are guilty, why wouldn't he sit down with USADA and detail the events in question as his teammates have?
My guess as an attorney?
1. Bad legal advice.
2. He is just fed up with it. With no threat of genuine legal prosecution, he probably calculated that it would eventually bring down the USADA itself for their intransigence.
3. All of his accusers do not have clean hands -- he assumed the court of public opinion would be on his side.
4. He did not consider that he would lose sponsors and they might sue him.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 24, 2012, 06:59:57 AM
My guess as an attorney?
1. Bad legal advice.
2. He is just fed up with it. With no threat of genuine legal prosecution, he probably calculated that it would eventually bring down the USADA itself for their intransigence.
3. All of his accusers do not have clean hands -- he assumed the court of public opinion would be on his side.
4. He did not consider that he would lose sponsors and they might sue him.
5. Perjury.
Quote from: stateprez on October 24, 2012, 07:14:27 AM
5. Perjury.
If USADA had any actual legal authority to function as a court of law, that might be relevant. It's not.
The worst thing that USADA can do is ban him and strip his medals.. Oh, they already did that without any actual evidence and without his testimony.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 24, 2012, 07:17:50 AM
If USADA had any actual legal authority to function as a court of law, that might be relevant. It's not.
The worst thing that USADA can do is ban him and strip his medals.. Oh, they already did that without any actual evidence and without his testimony.
actually USADA can do neither. They are basically an advisory agency to different sports. The sporting agencies are the only ones that can do the banning etc.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 24, 2012, 07:17:50 AM
If USADA had any actual legal authority to function as a court of law, that might be relevant. It's not.
The worst thing that USADA can do is ban him and strip his medals.. Oh, they already did that without any actual evidence and without his testimony.
It was all Grand Jury testimony. I'm not an attorney, but I was under the impression lying was a federal offense under those circumstances?
QuoteFloyd Landis: After his testimony to federal law enforcement officials, he was accused of being a liar by Armstrong and his representatives.
QuoteTyler Hamilton: After Hamilton's cooperation with federal law enforcement officials, he says he was physically accosted by Armstrong on June 11, 2011, in an Aspen, Colo., restaurant. Hamilton testified that Armstrong told him, "I'm going to make your life a living hell."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/10/lance-armstrong-usada-reasoned-decision-george-hincapie/1625607/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/10/lance-armstrong-usada-reasoned-decision-george-hincapie/1625607/)
Quote from: stateprez on October 24, 2012, 07:25:22 AM
It was all Grand Jury testimony. I'm not an attorney, but I was under the impression lying was a federal offense under those circumstances?
In the 2005 investigation.
It is a federal offense, if there is an open investigation by an AG or prosecutor and you lie to THEM. The USADA is neither. You can lie to USADA all you want.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/sports/cycling/federal-prosecutors-drop-lance-armstrong-investigation.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/sports/cycling/federal-prosecutors-drop-lance-armstrong-investigation.html)
One more time:
QuoteArmstrong, who won the Tour de France a record seven times, has always emphatically denied all accusations that he used illegal performance-enhancing drugs. But his first Tour de France win in 1999 followed the event’s largest doping scandal and ever since he has fought suspicions that his Tour titles were tainted by drug use. But he has never tested positive for any illegal substance. (At the 1999 Tour, he failed a test for a corticosteroid but produced a doctor’s note indicating that the drug had been used for therapeutic reasons.)
Quote from: ducatiz on October 24, 2012, 07:28:00 AM
In the 2005 investigation.
No, Hamilton, Landis, Hincapie, Leipheimer, et al. testified in the 2011 case to a federal Grand Jury.
QuoteIn July 2010, he was subpoenaed to appear before a grand jury revolving around the use of performance enhancing drugs in cycling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hamilton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hamilton)
QuoteAfter that initial connection was made between Landis and Novitzky, federal agents began knocking on the doors of other former Armstrong teammates, some of whom later testified against Armstrong.
From here:
Quote from: Ducatamount on October 18, 2012, 09:21:14 AM
The beginning of the end. (Sorry if this is derby)
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/inquiry-into-tattooed-guy-put-lance-armstrong-case-in-motion-281282 (http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/inquiry-into-tattooed-guy-put-lance-armstrong-case-in-motion-281282)
Quote from: stateprez on October 24, 2012, 07:39:28 AM
No, Hamilton, Landis, Hincapie, Leipheimer, et al. testified in the 2011 case to a federal Grand Jury.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hamilton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hamilton)
From here:
I gotcha, but again, that is not USADA, the investigation was dropped and USADA does not have the authority to prosecute anyone for perjury to a grand jury, even if they could materially prove it.
Which, by the way, they cannot. Testimony of an unclean party is insufficient evidence to convict regarding perjury. Even if USADA sent their investigation to the US attorney's office, the USAG would not reopen anything as their evidence is legally insufficient to convict.
No jury would even convict someone on testimony of a GUILTY party over laboratory test info.
Try to imagine it....
Rape victim says attacker was defendant.
Rape victim's friend says defendant was attacker.
Both rape victim and friend were in a business venture with defendant, but both got into trouble and defendant didn't.
DNA evidence showing the defendant's blood
does not match the sperm from the rape kit.
Jury convict? I have to say I seriously doubt it.
That is pretty much what we have here.
My point was instead of suing USADA, why wouldn't Lance tell his truth. To me the answer is very simple: because he can't.
I agree with your points about physical proof. This is a very good explanation of the problem....caused largely by the UCI.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/robert-millar/the-bare-minimum (http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/robert-millar/the-bare-minimum)
Quote1998 was the warning that the 50% limit chosen by the UCI two years earlier was an open invitation to dope to that level. The teams of the period, as teams had always done, expected the rules to be pushed and organised themselves as they thought fit. The UCI said it was 50% to protect riders’ health and just ignored the sudden emergence of the 75kg climbers.
QuoteWant to know who was juiced? That's easy â€" just ask to see their blood levels . Before EPO, the haematocrit norm would have been around 40-42%, gradually reducing as a grand tour went on. Then suddenly everyone's jumped to 50% or more and stayed there for weeks at a time.
I don't want the guy to go to jail. I admire his accomplishments, and he did win 7 on a level playing field, but everyone else has taken their fall.
My time has passed for this level of competition- I'm concerned about the 17 and 18 year old kids I race with on a weekly basis to be put in those positions when they're racing in Europe. The whole system needs to be seen as a failure so it can be cleaned up, and I'm sorry to say, but Lance is going to be that vehicle.
Quote from: stateprez on October 24, 2012, 08:02:36 AM
My point was instead of suing USADA, why wouldn't Lance tell his truth. To me the answer is very simple: because he can't.
I'd say as a practical matter, he doesn't have to. He has made his money. He might have to deal with some lawsuits over it, but he's not going to jail, and he won't be forgotten -- all those videos of him winning are everywhere. This isn't 1908 and the only newsreels can be burnt.
The USADA has egg on their face. They should have just closed the book. His actions in the real world wouldn't even bear scrutiny -- there is a statute of limitations on almost every crime, except murder and a few others. Sure USADA doesn't have to do that, but the fact is -- they had a testing standard and they have ignored their own rules to go after him.
At the most, they should have just required a "star" after his name to say there was a question of substance use.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 24, 2012, 08:08:28 AM
The USADA has egg on their face. They should have just closed the book. His actions in the real world wouldn't even bear scrutiny -- there is a statute of limitations on almost every crime, except murder and a few others. Sure USADA doesn't have to do that, but the fact is -- they had a testing standard and they have ignored their own rules to go after him.
Not to split heirs, but their testing standards only applies to the Olympic program and probably domestic competition- with respect to international cycling competition, they would default to the WADA or UCI tests which were horribly flawed.
That is irrelevant for the criminal case though. Using EPO or blood transfusions to win a race in the US is not a crime in itself. Not to mention the vast majority of incidents in question for Lance took place in Spain, France, and Italy.
It is however a crime in Spain, since 2006 I believe- whether or not they can go after retroactive incidents is another question.
Also, with respect to being able to lie all you want to USADA...here's an excerpt from Levi Leipheimer's affidavit:
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h286/CPrezioso/Screenshot2012-10-24at13813PM_zps9c7c49ac.png)
Full document here:
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Leipheimer%2c+Levi%2c+Affidavit.pdf (http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Leipheimer%2c+Levi%2c+Affidavit.pdf)
As a USA Cycling Professional license holder, Lance would have been under the same jurisdiction.
Quote from: stateprez on October 24, 2012, 10:42:08 AM
Also, with respect to being able to lie all you want to USADA...here's an excerpt from Levi Leipheimer's affidavit:
(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h286/CPrezioso/Screenshot2012-10-24at13813PM_zps9c7c49ac.png)
Full document here:
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Leipheimer%2c+Levi%2c+Affidavit.pdf (http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Leipheimer%2c+Levi%2c+Affidavit.pdf)
...meaning that lying to USADA has no immediate legal ramifications. They cannot order you to jail for lying to them.
The idea that widespread doping creates a "level playing field" is simply a fallacy, both because riders bodies have wildly different physiological reactions to identical doping regimes, and because more money buys better doping and squelches competition rather than enhancing it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/13/doping-cycling-level-playing-field-fallacy (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/13/doping-cycling-level-playing-field-fallacy)
Money quote from the above:
But EPO is expensive. And to get as close as you can to that 50% level without straying above it and getting disqualified, you need an expert clinician, blood lab centrifuges and all sorts. So teams put doctors on the payroll: doctors they could trust to help them cheat and stay shtum, which doesn't come cheap. And some of those doctors also supplied testosterone, human growth hormone, cortisone, Activogen, etc â€" depending on what the budget was. We know from the Usada report that Lance Armstrong spent more than $1m on the services of one single doctor, Michele Ferrari; and that almost certainly did not account for all his drug supplies.
Thanks to the Usada report, we know what the best doping programme money can buy looks like. And thanks to the 1998 Festina scandal, we also know what the cheap and desperate version looks like: a random cocktail of drugs stashed in the back of a car driven by a soigneur who was high himself, paid for by an impoverished French team from pooling the winnings of their meagre results.
And even within teams, not all doping is created equal - the testimony indicates that Lance got the best drugs & the best medical support, while his teammates often didn't get the same drugs & support. One of the weird, sad ironies (for me, at least) of this whole period involved riders like George Hincape who came into the sport with physiological gifts that included a naturally high hematocrit level (so was helped less by EPO & other blood boosters) and other advantages that would put him among the elite of the elite. In a peloton rife with doping, he's relegated from likely team leader to domestique. That's not a level playing field.
Put me in the category of those naifs who had a rotating series of posters up on the wall, with Tyler, George, Bjarne, Floyd and finally Lance (yes, I actually had posters of every one of them .. still have my Andy Hampsten one :P ) - which might just as well have been an X-Files "I want to believe" poster. Like Stateprez, what I'm hoping for now is a conflagration that will burn things to the ground and clear the way for new growth by the juniors just starting in the sport - and that includes not only Lance, but the UCI, USADA, sponsors and other entities that were complicit for a very long time in making lots and lots of money off people like me who believed in UFOs and other miracles.
I'm on the Side of DUCATIZ on this one ( yes I have a law degree to)
If the situation was in civil or criminal court no lawyer would persue ...lack of physical evidence and testimonies obtain under pressure !
absolutely no lawyer nor judge would hear a case like that ! It goes against all legal notion of equity and common legal sense !
altough Lance could actually sue all these guy's for false allegations and they would have to make a testimony under oath . It could expose them to commit perjury [laugh] in front o an actual judge ...that would be funny to watch !! [bow_down]
ho yes!!! I'm god ;D
My legal strategy would be to sue all those guy's for false claims instead of the USDA the judge would be in favor of lance because he could prove that all is tests where negative ....
physical ..
don't forget then in a civil trail is a actual REAL decision !!
bam!!
He would have a REAL legal decision in is favor with it he could then he could sue the UCI and the USADA for damages in another lawsuit
don't get me wrong I don't like cheater's but I'm also against something that as no legal common sense!! [roll]
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on October 24, 2012, 01:22:03 PM
altough Lance could actually sue all these guy's for false allegations and they would have to make a testimony under oath . It could expose them to commit perjury [laugh] in front o an actual judge ...that would be funny to watch !! [bow_down]
ho yes!!! I'm god ;D
That already happened, and it's about to backfire on him:
QuoteLondon's Sunday Times is considering suing Lance Armstrong over a libel case he brought against the newspaper over doping allegations which resulted in a costly payout.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/13/sport/armstrong-doping-sunday-times/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/13/sport/armstrong-doping-sunday-times/index.html)
I'll give you that you're fairly persistent arguing a case you don't really know anything about.
Quote from: stateprez on October 24, 2012, 01:45:00 PM
That already happened, and it's about to backfire on him:http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/13/sport/armstrong-doping-sunday-times/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/13/sport/armstrong-doping-sunday-times/index.html)
~~~SNIP~~~
I find it ironic that they would pursue suing in response to losing a libel case, basing it on "testimony" which could well be deemed libelous in itself.
But I'm not a lawyer, so perhaps there's something there that I'm not aware of.
CNN is airing this documentary on the case Saturday at 9pm.
Streaming here:
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/10/11/3608613.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/10/11/3608613.htm)
FFWD to 9:00 for the deposition segment where Stephanie McIlvain (Oakley) lies about being in the hospital room with the Andreu's where Lance laundry lists his drug use, followed by her recorded conversation with Greg LeMond stating otherwise.
Lance isn't going to sue anyone for libel again...guess why.
Quote from: stateprez on October 24, 2012, 01:45:00 PM
That already happened, and it's about to backfire on him
actually it Didn't happen Lance Lawer's never filed lawsuit for libel against is ex-teamate
if they did so me the link to the lawsuit ?
I'm intersted to see how it work out
Lance lawyer's where probably waithing to see what would happend whit UCI before doing those kind of lawsuit.
I'll call Lance this weekend just to make sure ;D
but just to say... I respet your point and your opinion
I dont care if he did it or not ( welle a little)
what I have a problem whit is that the "rule of law" is not respected in that case.
Well, I agree with you, I would love to see Lance sue everyone who gave sworn grand jury testimony against him.
I'm sure USADA was able to persuade 26 people to perjure themselves with corroborating testimony.
QuoteThe U.S. Anti-Doping Agency on Wednesday released its evidence against Lance Armstrong â€" a massive dossier of more than 1,000 pages with sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 cyclists with knowledge of Armstrong's doping activities on the U.S. Postal Service Cycling team.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/10/lance-armstrong-usada-reasoned-decision-teammates-doping/1624551/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/10/lance-armstrong-usada-reasoned-decision-teammates-doping/1624551/)
Do yourself a favor, read the report, read Hamilton's book, watch the video, etc. before you waste anymore time defending Lance.
I'll be back when there's another Lance bombshell update...shouldn't be long.
Edit: SCA will formally request repayment as early as tomorrow.
QuoteThe Dallas-based insurance company will send a formal request to Lance Armstrong and his representatives, perhaps as early as Thursday, demanding repayment of bonuses the company paid the disgraced cyclist for his Tour de France wins in 2002, 2003 and 2004, as well as legal fees and interest.
“It could be $12 million, probably more,†the source told the Daily News.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/sca-promotions-lance-money-back-article-1.1191348#ixzz2AGiPXXIS (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/sca-promotions-lance-money-back-article-1.1191348#ixzz2AGiPXXIS)
And from David Walsh on Twitter....
Quote
David Walsh â€@DavidWalshST
Central to SCA's case with LA will be their contention that in 2006 tribunal he committed perjury. He kept saying on oath he didn't dope.
If you think someone is doing something wrong and it takes you 7years to do something about it doesn't that make you an enabler?
actually i'm not defending lance if he did it he did it but everybody as a wringht to a fair trial that what I'm defending .... I'm defending the "rule of law"
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on October 24, 2012, 06:46:11 PM
actually i'm not defending lance if he did it he did it but everybody as a wringht to a fair trial that what I'm defending .... I'm defending the "rule of law"
Word.
But again, USADA is not a court of law. Its only force is contractual.
Seems to me that it would have been in the best interest for the UCI to come out and say changes need to be made in regard to testing for doping and leave it at that. This is going to be a no win situation for both sides. Like I said before, I personally think he doped, doesn't change my opinion of him. I think he's done quit a bit of good for the sport as well as for cancer victims. As long as he is in the news, cycling will get noticed that is ultimately what the UCI wants. Its just too bad that one has to get lynched, when the fault lies on the whole.
LeMond to McQuaid
QuoteI want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/open-letter-pat-mcquaid-greg-lemond (http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/open-letter-pat-mcquaid-greg-lemond)
McQuaid's son, Andrew, to Greg
Quotehttps://twitter.com/andrewmcquaid/st...18415619706880
'The main concern is not doping'... Really Greg, really? Is that because you, per chance, doped yourself?? #CHEATER
Talk about libel. These people are ridiculous. UCI needs to be wiped clean.
the more this soap opera churns stuff like this...the more the credibility will be hurt and the less care the people will have for UCI...end result...everyone gets hurt!
Quote from: zooom on October 25, 2012, 08:00:16 AM
the more this soap opera churns stuff like this...the more the credibility will be hurt and the less care the people will have for UCI...end result...everyone gets hurt!
I think I said about 10 pages ago this was going to bring everything down.
USADA's Torquemada-esqe zeal is going to backfire.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 25, 2012, 08:07:37 AM
I think I said about 10 pages ago this was going to bring everything down.
USADA's Torquemada-esqe zeal is going to backfire.
USADA and UCI are not allies. If the UCI falls because of the corruption exposed in the USADA report, it will be a huge vindication for them.
QuoteUSADA chief executive Travis Tygart, who on Monday had called for a full and independent investigation into professional cycling, has since heaped further blame on UCI
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-23/business/sns-rt-cycling-armstrongwordsl1e8lnhik-20121023_1_usada-uci-travis-tygart (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-23/business/sns-rt-cycling-armstrongwordsl1e8lnhik-20121023_1_usada-uci-travis-tygart)
I think stateprez works for the USADA. [laugh]
Quote from: stateprez on October 25, 2012, 08:45:35 AM
USADA and UCI are not allies. If the UCI falls because of the corruption exposed in the USADA report, it will be a huge vindication for them.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-23/business/sns-rt-cycling-armstrongwordsl1e8lnhik-20121023_1_usada-uci-travis-tygart (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-10-23/business/sns-rt-cycling-armstrongwordsl1e8lnhik-20121023_1_usada-uci-travis-tygart)
I think the opposite will happen. People will dissociate from USADA due to their witchhunt tactics.
They should stick to quasi-legal guidelines, including statutes of limitations. If Armstrong did in fact dope and managed to test clean for so many years, then fix the system and move forward.
Now we have 7 years of Tour de Frogs with no winner. Really? That's about as dumb as it goes.
Quote from: ducatiz on October 25, 2012, 09:09:04 AM
I think the opposite will happen. People will dissociate from USADA due to their witchhunt tactics.
They should stick to quasi-legal guidelines, including statutes of limitations. If Armstrong did in fact dope and managed to test clean for so many years, then fix the system and move forward.
Now we have 7 years of Tour de Frogs with no winner. Really? That's about as dumb as it goes.
Again, it's not USADA's guidelines, it's the UCI. Fixing the system = gutting the UCI. That's their next "witchhunt," and it's working.
For the average person reading soundbite media, Lance fanboys, etc. maybe. People who pay for racing licenses (aka fund USA Cycling), pay entry fees, buy team jerseys, high end equipment, have no allegiance to Lance. Go to a race and see how many people wear Liestrong bracelets.
The Tour is a private entity. If they feel no winner should be named, then that's in their best interest.
cycling is sucking big time lately.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/othersports/lance-armstrong-made-overtures-to-usada-regarding-confession-dialogue-now-closed/2013/01/05/1008a00a-5766-11e2-bf3e-76c0a789346f_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/othersports/lance-armstrong-made-overtures-to-usada-regarding-confession-dialogue-now-closed/2013/01/05/1008a00a-5766-11e2-bf3e-76c0a789346f_story.html)
Lancey pants going on Oprah:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/oprah-winfrey-to-conduct-first-post-usada-interview-with-armstrong_270788 (http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/oprah-winfrey-to-conduct-first-post-usada-interview-with-armstrong_270788)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/lance-armstrong-apologizes-to-people-in-cylcling-community-ahead-of-oprah-winfrey-interview/2013/01/13/23512604-5ded-11e2-a389-ee565c81c565_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/lance-armstrong-apologizes-to-people-in-cylcling-community-ahead-of-oprah-winfrey-interview/2013/01/13/23512604-5ded-11e2-a389-ee565c81c565_story.html)
Meh
I am highly disillusioned.
IF Lance doped
Then pretty much everything I have ever believed in is shattered.
I don't know if I can watch.
I am of course bullshitting.
USA Today specifically identifies Landis as a reconciliation target......that's fairly shocking to me.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/must-reads-armstrong-making-apologies_271398 (http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/news/must-reads-armstrong-making-apologies_271398)
Lance is just trying to get him to settle or drop his lawsuit. After his interview is released its likely the expected admissions will sink him.
Quote from: hbliam on January 14, 2013, 08:55:11 AM
Lance is just trying to get him to settle or drop his lawsuit. After his interview is released its likely the expected admissions will sink him.
No, I get that. My impression of their current relationship is that it's beyond reconciliation....especially when there are possibly millions on the table for Landis. I guess if it's enough money to repay his defrauded donors and keep himself out of prison....
If he confesses, it's likely he's already cut deals.....
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/analysis/commentary-forget-oprah-what-is-armstrong-offering-usada_271409 (http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/analysis/commentary-forget-oprah-what-is-armstrong-offering-usada_271409)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/lance-armstrong-confesses-to-oprah-winfrey-about-his-doping/2013/01/15/4fb942ea-5f0e-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/lance-armstrong-confesses-to-oprah-winfrey-about-his-doping/2013/01/15/4fb942ea-5f0e-11e2-b05a-605528f6b712_story.html)
http://youtu.be/oU7rqB9E_0M (http://youtu.be/oU7rqB9E_0M)
I think he lied about lying.
I'm just glad he finally had the ball to fess up.
Quote from: ZILBERT on January 16, 2013, 09:24:31 AM
I'm just glad he finally had the ball to fess up.
I see what you did there...
Sounds mostly like he's finally negotiated a deal for his testimony against the top levels of the UCI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-admits-doping-and-says-he-will-testify-against-cycling-officials.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-admits-doping-and-says-he-will-testify-against-cycling-officials.html?_r=0)
How many stories is this house?
Quote from: ducpainter on January 16, 2013, 09:55:45 AM
How many stories is this house?
enough that the Olympic committee is thinking of dropping cycling from the summer games programming apparently....
Quote from: triangleforge on January 16, 2013, 09:52:53 AM
I see what you did there...
Far be it from me to pass up a chance at some testicular cancer humor. [drink]
Quote from: triangleforge on January 16, 2013, 09:52:53 AM
I see what you did there...
Sounds mostly like he's finally negotiated a deal for his testimony against the top levels of the UCI.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-admits-doping-and-says-he-will-testify-against-cycling-officials.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-admits-doping-and-says-he-will-testify-against-cycling-officials.html?_r=0)
Lance says yes, Feds say no.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/analysis/feds-could-see-armstrong-in-court-after-rejecting-restitution-offer_271610 (http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/analysis/feds-could-see-armstrong-in-court-after-rejecting-restitution-offer_271610)
QuoteThe Wall Street Journal reported that USADA CEO Travis Tygart told Armstrong it was too late to come clean with the perks of an effective plea bargain, and that the minimum he could hope for was an eight-year ban rather than the lifetime barring he’s currently saddled with â€" an effective death knell for his endurance career.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/analysis/analysis-the-ever-shifting-ground-beneath-lance_271507 (http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/analysis/analysis-the-ever-shifting-ground-beneath-lance_271507)
Doesn't sound like they're going to play ball. My guess is the UCI is going to be gutted regardless of testimony.
Lance is 'crawfishing' :D
He is a wondrous athlete, and a rather horrible example of a human. I used to admire him, and now I hope he faces serious consequences.
He's always been an ass. I met him in the in/around '94, and he was a colossal ass to everyone in the room.
Quote from: DRKWNG on January 16, 2013, 05:05:50 PM
He's always been an ass. I met him in the in/around '94, and he was a colossal ass to everyone in the room.
That's because he was jacked. ;)
It wouldn't surprise me if that was either before he went on the juice, or right when he started. Regardless though, he was an ass.
Quote from: DRKWNG on January 16, 2013, 05:10:07 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if that was either before he went on the juice, or right when he started. Regardless though, he was an ass.
I've read speculation that he was on stuff as early as 18 during his Olympic Devo/ Pro Tri days. Steroid use at that age has been linked to accelerated/early cancer- not that that conclusion could ever be proven.
Look...if you guys had half the balls Lance has...ok...nevermind. I already beat that horse to death.
(http://ericlightborn.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)
Just another story documenting the assness
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html?page=1 (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html?page=1)
Quote from Lance tonight.
"I didn't invent the culture, but I didn't try to stop the culture."
"I wasn't afraid of getting caught."
Raced clean in 09-10, finished 3rd and 23rd.
Quote from: kopfjäger on January 17, 2013, 06:17:28 PM
Quote from Lance tonight.
"I didn't invent the culture, but I didn't try to stop the culture."
Don't hate the player, baby. Hate the game.
Quote from: ducatiz on January 17, 2013, 07:22:33 PM
Don't hate the player, baby. Hate the game.
I don't hate him, I'm ashamed of him. :D
Watched the Oprah interview. What a POS he is. I doubt he was clean in 09/10 either. Lying is one thing, attacking people like he did is inexcusable.
do you think he regrets making his fight with UCI as public as it was...because you know he doesn't regret threatening anyone really and he sure doesn't actually regret cheating....just getting caught probably more than anything....
Sounds to me like he only regrets his comeback in 09/10 because he thinks he would have gotten away with it otherwise.
If anyone deserves jail time for perjury, Lance does.
Quote from: Triple J on January 18, 2013, 10:40:17 AM
Sounds to me like he only regrets his comeback in 09/10 because he thinks he would have gotten away with it otherwise.
If anyone deserves jail time for perjury, Lance does.
WOW, clearly you must think he is a criminal. Did he lie? Sure. Was any one physically hurt? F-no. Lying to protect ones ass may not be acceptable, but surely not worthy of jail time unless real damages occur. I personally like Lance. Does it bother me that he lied? Yep, but I fully understand it. If you think you would have done differently, then you must be a real saint. Maybe they should disband livestrong and let all of the cancer patience fend for them selves. As long as society rewards athletes with billions of dollars, they will continue to push the envelope. We mortals will most likely never see fame. If we do, I'd bet our outlook would be 180.
Quote from: scduc on January 18, 2013, 11:34:58 AM
WOW, clearly you must think he is a criminal. Did he lie? Sure. Was any one physically hurt? F-no. Lying to protect ones ass may not be acceptable, but surely not worthy of jail time unless real damages occur. I personally like Lance. Does it bother me that he lied? Yep, but I fully understand it. If you think you would have done differently, then you must be a real saint. Maybe they should disband livestrong and let all of the cancer patience fend for them selves. As long as society rewards athletes with billions of dollars, they will continue to push the envelope. We mortals will most likely never see fame. If we do, I'd bet our outlook would be 180.
Your man crush on Lance seems to be clouding your judgement. ;)
Perjury, which he is most definitely guilty of, is a crime. If the authorities are willing to go after athletes like Barry Bonds for it, then they certainly should go after Lance. That was my point. I don't know if jail is appropriate, but that's what others have been threatened with.
The PED use and constant lying about it isn't my big issue. Lots of athletes have done that, and I understand it. I'd like to hope I wouldn't use PEDs if I was in the same position, but I don't know for sure, as I'm sure the pull of fame and fortune can change your outlook.
What I have a problem with is how he went after his critics, who were telling the truth. Sure, he didn't
physically hurt them...he just sued them, discredited them, got them blackballed form their sport, and most definitely
seriously harmed them professionally and financially. By his own admission in the interview he sued more people than he can remember. He's a dirtbag, and what he did is inexcusable. I am 110% sure I wouldn't have done that in his position. By your logic Bernie Madoff shouldn't be in jail either because he never
physically harmed anyone.
Well said.
Quote from: Triple J on January 18, 2013, 01:16:11 PM
Your man crush on Lance seems to be clouding your judgement. ;)
Perjury, which he is most definitely guilty of, is a crime. If the authorities are willing to go after athletes like Barry Bonds for it, then they certainly should go after Lance. That was my point. I don't know if jail is appropriate, but that's what others have been threatened with.
The PED use and constant lying about it isn't my big issue. Lots of athletes have done that, and I understand it. I'd like to hope I wouldn't use PEDs if I was in the same position, but I don't know for sure, as I'm sure the pull of fame and fortune can change your outlook.
What I have a problem with is how he went after his critics, who were telling the truth. Sure, he didn't physically hurt them...he just sued them, discredited them, got them blackballed form their sport, and most definitely seriously harmed them professionally and financially. By his own admission in the interview he sued more people than he can remember. He's a dirtbag, and what he did is inexcusable. I am 110% sure I wouldn't have done that in his position. By your logic Bernie Madoff shouldn't be in jail either because he never physically harmed anyone.
Quote from: scduc on January 18, 2013, 11:34:58 AM
WOW, clearly you must think he is a criminal. Did he lie? Sure. Was any one physically hurt? F-no. Lying to protect ones ass may not be acceptable, but surely not worthy of jail time unless real damages occur. I personally like Lance. Does it bother me that he lied? Yep, but I fully understand it. If you think you would have done differently, then you must be a real saint. Maybe they should disband livestrong and let all of the cancer patience fend for them selves. As long as society rewards athletes with billions of dollars, they will continue to push the envelope. We mortals will most likely never see fame. If we do, I'd bet our outlook would be 180.
He is a criminal. And a cheater. And treated a lot of people very badly. I don't care so much about the cheating but using his power and money to destroy others I do care about.
Livestrong? A good byproduct from a criminal. Kind of like the OMG's and their toy runs.
Well now that you put it that way, I agree with you 100%. Throw his ass in jail and take every thing away from him. Remove his name from the history books and because the livestrong foundation was created with stolen money, close that down too.
Quote from: scduc on January 18, 2013, 03:25:44 PM
Well now that you put it that way, I agree with you 100%. Throw his ass in jail and take every thing away from him. Remove his name from the history books and because the livestrong foundation was created with stolen money, close that down too.
Could care less what they do to Lance, but by no means should Livestrong be shut down.
Quote from: scduc on January 18, 2013, 03:25:44 PM
Well now that you put it that way, I agree with you 100%. Throw his ass in jail and take every thing away from him. Remove his name from the history books and because the livestrong foundation was created with stolen money, close that down too.
Livestrong does not need Lance.
Quote from: hbliam on January 18, 2013, 04:55:02 PM
Livestrong does not need Lance.
I sincerely hope that's the case, because the foundation did spend at least some (how much is in a bit of dispute) of the money it raised on an important, and under-served, part of the cancer community: people who've survived and have to put their lives back together somehow.
As for Lance himself, if I were his attorneys I'd be asking for payment up front, as it's not clear what he's going to have to pay them with after this all runs its course.
So maybe livestrong should remove lance from all documents and eliminate him from any credit, past present or future. The organization probably doesn't need Lance, but most likely would not exist without him either.
Lawyers , look at OJ. He didn't have any money, yet that didn't stop the lawyers from defending him.
Its a big world out there people. Not everything is as clear as it seems. And not everyone is bad, but show me one person who has not done bad things or treated people poorly. Some of us at just better at getting away with it. Lawyers are a special breed. You want to change the world, start with stopping them from trying to sue everyone. For if there were any ethics in society 90% of all the lawsuit would not exist. Reality is money still talks. We all want more of it and most of us will step on our grandmothers head to get more. Pluck thy stone from thy own eye before casting it unto another.
Quote from: scduc on January 18, 2013, 06:02:06 PM
Some of us are just better at getting away with it.
Congratulations. :P
Quote from: kopfjäger on January 18, 2013, 06:22:48 PM
Congratulations. :P
Don't get me wrong, I've more than paid my due's for all the stupid things I've done and all the people I've mistreated.
9:52 p.m. ET -- Lance says he has only recently understood how much this saga has affected his mother. Two minutes later, he says that if he saw one of his five children act like he acted in the defiant video clips Oprah has been showing, he'd be "apoplectic."
So I bet "big business" sponsors feel used.
If true......
Good. [evil]
They may feel used, but the bottom line is they will just attach to another upcoming star, get some of their sponsor dollars back from lance and ultimately be ahead. The only way "big business" would be damaged would be if they continue to support lance and the consumer decides to not buy their product. Which in this case, won't happen because Lance has no sponsors left. Business ethics = oxymoron. Same thing happened with T Woods.
Tiger who?
So just watched the part of the interview that went like this (not verbatim):
Lance: "...Nike called. They're out. That's a $75 million dollar day."
Oprah: "$75 million dollars. Out the window."
It actually should have gone something more like this:
Lance: "...Nike called. They're out. That's a $75 million dollar day."
Oprah: "$75 mil. huh. I have at least that between the cushions of the couch in the green room, help yourself. "
Woods didn't disgrace his sport. He was just a slut.
Quote from: scduc on January 18, 2013, 08:36:22 PM
They may feel used, but the bottom line is they will just attach to another upcoming star, get some of their sponsor dollars back from lance and ultimately be ahead. The only way "big business" would be damaged would be if they continue to support lance and the consumer decides to not buy their product. Which in this case, won't happen because Lance has no sponsors left. Business ethics = oxymoron. Same thing happened with T Woods.
Comparing Lance to Tiger Woods is just goofy, Tiger never lied under oath about using banned substances, he just chased a lot of pussy and he's still sponsored by NIKE.
Quote from: Pedro-bot on January 18, 2013, 08:49:15 PM
So just watched the part of the interview that went like this (not verbatim):
Lance: "...Nike called. They're out. That's a $75 million dollar day."
Oprah: "$75 million dollars. Out the window."
It actually should have gone something more like this:
Lance: "...Nike called. They're out. That's a $75 million dollar day."
Oprah: "$75 mil. huh. I have at least that between the cushions of the couch in the green room, help yourself. "
Ha, yeah she's only worth $2.7 Billion. :D
Sponsors pulled because they did not want to be associated with the individual, they did not want the bad rep. I don't see that cycling has been disgraced, people still ride and compete, if any thing, the situation has actually increase awareness and will ultimately make the sport better. Do you honestly think that this will be the downfall of cycling? It will also force the governing bodies to do a better job. When Lance wasn't in the news, cycling started to faulted, wait until this years tour. My guess is it will be more popular than ever. You can't disgraced a sport unless the sport is vulnerable. And how the hell does it happen for 7 years with hints of problems and nothing happens. Would your employer let you continue to work if they thought you were coming to work drunk? You might get away with it once or twice, but they will definitely take corrective actions to prevent it from happening. Blame the player if you feel you must, but the sport is to blame as well. As far as his treating people like shit well when people get attacked they go on the defensive and lash out. Definitely not right.
I did not compare Lance to TW. Just the fact of sponsor pullout.
Quote from: scduc on January 18, 2013, 09:20:18 PM
I did not compare Lance to TW. Just the fact of sponsor pullout.
Don't think they pulled from Tiger.
I must have been misinformed, I thought TW's lost sponsor's from his actions. If not, disregard any reference to him.
Quote from: kopfjäger on January 18, 2013, 09:24:03 PM
Don't think they pulled from Tiger.
AT&T, Accenture, Gatorade and Gillette. A watch company too.
Quote from: Little Monkey Toes on January 18, 2013, 09:28:37 PM
AT&T, Accenture, Gatorade and Gillette. A watch company too.
Thought you didn't know who Tiger was. :D oh and he's still playing golf, because he didn't lie under oath like Lancey pants. :D
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/01/18/lance-armstrong-oprah-interview/1846923/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2013/01/18/lance-armstrong-oprah-interview/1846923/)
“The ultimate crime is the betrayal of these people that supported me and believed in me.â€
Can I ask, will all of lance's sponsors give the money back to the public that have bought there products. Will the TdF give back money to spectators and viewers?
So as long as money is being made business will keep there mouth shut, but now the cat is out of the bag it's tut tut tut, we want our money back.
I don't condone what he has done, but feel these companies asking for there money back is wrong.
Quote from: kopfjäger on January 18, 2013, 09:34:43 PM
Thought you didn't know who Tiger was. :D oh and he's still playing golf, because he didn't lie under oath like Lancey pants. :D
Google! I do remember when his thing went down there was a lot of chatter about sponsors leaving. My Tiger who comment was really meant to show that while he is still playing he does not get anywhere near the amount of news coverage. Out of sight, out of mind?
If Lance had not went for the comeback, he might have gotten away with it.
On the money front - NPR reported that he is worth about $100 million. The listed out all those that might sue him to get bonus cash and lawsuit payouts back.
Quote from: The Don on January 18, 2013, 11:52:19 PM
I don't condone what he has done, but feel these companies asking for there money back is wrong.
I agree. They benefitted from the relationship just like he did.
The Lance is gonna get his ass counter-sued off. Bet you he's not sleeping well these nights. Hope is "lawyered up". [roll]
Also wonder what Oprah paid him to do those interviews on her network. Bet that wasn't cheap. If he wanted to do it for free he could have driven himself to KVUE in Austin.
[laugh] 17 about a cheating prick. [laugh]
Karma got his ass, he's known for being an ass in the 1st degree
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/sports/cycling/antidoping-agencies-wait-as-lance-armstrong-decides-next-move.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/20/sports/cycling/antidoping-agencies-wait-as-lance-armstrong-decides-next-move.html?_r=0)
Quote from: Triple J on January 19, 2013, 08:57:31 AM
I agree. They benefitted from the relationship just like he did.
That's exactly what I meant by posting "big business" feeling used.
If a return of endorsement money is being proposed by sponsors with the argument that Lance cheated, then I'd like to see every major professional athlete that has used performance enhancing drugs return that money as well.
And while we're at it, every Jack and Jill that was passed up for the teams big contract or earned a smaller endorsement line up with their hand out as well.
Why?
Well, because the "cheating" athlete absorbed those resources through an unfair manor. Had they not, the playing field would not have been tipped.
(http://catie.smugmug.com/photos/i-j7WGqjv/0/O/i-j7WGqjv.jpg)
Forgot to add:
If Trek and Nike get any money back from Lance, I'm going to ask both for my money back too. I want the money I overpaid for every item I purchased from both companies that had an inflated price because of Lance's endorsement deals.
Class action anyone? [cheeky]
+1 [thumbsup]
Greg has had a chip on his shoulder for years over Lance. It was a different day back then in cycling and the mega bucks sponsorship wasn't there in Greg's time. He's never been a fan of Lance. He's still trying to get over the years of hanging on Hinault's jersey and has never believed Lance's "I never doped" story.
Met Greg at Superweek in Milwaukee in the summer of '78 and raced with him (or rather against him...) when he still was restricted to junior gears. He was a really nice young guy, who could haul ass and had a great future. I think he was racing for the Palo Alto Bicycles/Avocet team at the time. Future Junior World Champ and Tour winner.... but the still hates Lance! [laugh]
He's baacck. :-\
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/11/lance-armstrong-tour-de-france-return-questions (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/11/lance-armstrong-tour-de-france-return-questions)
If u think about it all the major guys were doping etc. So lance won against them on even terms.
Quote from: Raux on July 11, 2015, 09:57:09 PM
If u think about it all the major guys were doping etc. So lance won against them on even terms.
He's a make the beast with two backsing liar, period. He shouldn't be allowed to do a 'charity' ride during the Tour. Elsewhere fine.
How does this Charity think they benefit from his participation [roll]
Bad taste!
Quote from: kopfjäger on July 11, 2015, 10:05:12 PM
He's a make the beast with two backsing liar, period. He shouldn't be allowed to do a 'charity' ride during the Tour. Elsewhere fine.
Lots of liars get to continue with their celebrity, why should Lance be any different?
Quote from: stopintime on July 12, 2015, 01:44:01 AM
How does this Charity think they benefit from his participation [roll]
Bad taste!
It doesn't. Lance is too much a narcissist to stay out of the spotlight.
Lotta hate for a guy y'all likely never met.
Ain't there worse people y'all never met you could hate?
I met him. Twice actually. It was back in the late 90s, and he was a narcissistic ass back then as well.
You don't get to be the best in the world at something without being a little self-centered. Some do a better job of selling themselves to the media and the public than others but they are still supremely certain of their own superiority. They have to be.
Quote from: Ddan on July 12, 2015, 06:02:05 AM
Lots of liars get to continue with their celebrity, why should Lance be any different?
He can do all the 'charity' work he wants, but his sorry ass belongs nowhere near the Tour.
Lance's problem isn't that he doped, or that he lied about it. They all did/do that. That can be forgiven.
Lance is a grade A douchebag because he successfully ruined people's lives and reputations while trying to hide his lies. He's a giant POS, and deserves anything that comes his way.