OK, so this offeseason I planned to have a ton of stuff done to my bike- new wheels, suspension, rearsets, heated grips, a painted engine, a SSS put on, a tailchop and an ex box exhaust from a 695 welded to fit my new setup, along with various other bolt ons like new tires and an oil cooler.
The problem is that I dont have a garage and tools, and am new to bikes. So i went to a local shop to get it done. The guy was informative, nice, and seemed like a good fit. I knew what I wanted done so I just needed somebody to do the wrench turning. He's had my bike since fall. I purchased the oil cooler, wheels, rearsets, suspension, swingarm. He was responsible for purchasing a new rear sprocket, chain, grips, fitting the ex box, painting (vht, so spray) the engine (masking takes a while) and cooler, exhaust, and a few other little parts, sending some other parts to powdercoat, and assembling.
I paid upfront in deposits and a LOT of money has gone his way, not to mention parts that i no longer needed as a swap for "labor".
We had talked late in the winter about getting it rebuilt before his shop gets crazy in the spring. I would call him frequently to check on the status, but it didn't seem to be going anywhere. Then the spring rush came and I was stuck with no bike. I kept calling to ask when we were going to build it and he would tell me something along the lines of "tomorrow- stop by at the end of the day to see the progress" but I'd get there and there would be nothing done. Two weekends and a row he had me coming in to meet him on a saturday morning to help him, only to not call me until 3-4pm, then tell me sunday, then stand me up then as well. Last week he called me tuesday to tell me that he had set aside last wednesday and thursday just for putting together my bike - another likely story, as thursday night I went in, and the painted engine was still unfinished and hanging, and the frame was still on the floor with the forks in the same shipped box. I was visibly upset , and then called him the next day and got no answer. A couple hours later his receptionist (gf) calle dme (for the first time ever instead of him) to tell me that she had me in the schedule for friday and saturday.
This week he finally made some progress. I went in tuesday and the bike was mocked up:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/monster.jpg)
(btw does the rear end look high to anyone else?)
The tires, which were like the first thing I told him to order, weren't in. also, the engine needed another coat, the exhaust was being re-tigged (they screwed up the first time) and needed a coat of VHT, and a couple other small pieces needed a spray. The problem was this meant the bike needed to be taken apart and back together again. "You'lll be riding thursday" was what I was told and I told him i was going to hold him to that. So I called yesterday and he said everything was ready and waiting on the new tire since he ordered the thinner one to spec for my old bike on the rear and needed the new one and it still wasnt in "supposedly it was coming wednesday". He said he needed to pick it up at UPS and we were good to go. Ok, so its been forever and we are about 6 weeks into when I was supposed to get the bike, I'm angry but he's done right?
Then last night I get this email at like 1a.m. :
Tom,
I have been running into finish issues with your bike.
I have put considerable effort into getting you ready and have not been able to meet the goal that I promised you.
In an effort to bring this project to a conclusion I need to push the finish date out.
I’m not sure that giving you a time frame is reasonable as I cannot foresee what more issues will arise.
I’m sure that this will agitate you as we have been down this avenue already.
I do regret not managing my time more wisely; a one man shop is just that.
I am posting a closed notice on the door and turning the phone off.
I will call you Friday afternoon to update you and have made this bike my only priority.
john
So what should I do? I mean, there was a lot of stuff to do here, but NONE of it couldnt have been done 2 months ago. Further, it really isn't that much work. The engine has been sprayed black waiting for a finish coat for about a month. I really just want to start riding and despite my long fuse am getting angry and depressed.
Sorry mang. You could stop by and check it out, but he sounds like he realizes he's f'ed up. If he stays true to his word and prioritizes it. Then all is good, if he starts messing off again, maybe it's time to pick it up, and get money back on the uncompleted portion. On the plus side it looks good. wt:
from the email it sounds like he is staying courteous and professional with you, and acknowledging your frustration - that counts for a little.
Sounds like you guys need to have some realistic expectations about when all this work can be completed.
Understanding how much work is involved for completion would be great but I doubt he knows or can estimate. A good start would be to sit down with the guy and work out what still needs to be done and work on that list. He can update you as each item is completed or runs into issues. If there are issues, he should list those as well so that you can see what he's coming up against and then track their progress as they are resolved. I'd also suggest going in there every night after work and helping. Try not to be frustrated with him, it won't help. I know the feeling, my bike has been in the shop for several weeks with nothing happening, it's not as long as yours but still frustrating.
Bike looks awesome btw, looking forward to seeing pics when it's done. :)
They also serve
Who only stand and wait. --John Milton
Hang in there dude. You are in the short rows now. Good things do take time.
Continue to be polite and graceful. In the end you win. You'll be ridin soon. mo:t:
But also, do make sure that you get what you paid for.
LA
Yeah, he got his timing all screwed up, but judging by this last email (and if he follows through with what he said), he seems professional enough to keep dealing with. You're in the home stretch, so I say hang in there.
Sounds like he's attempting to make it right.
I'd be double checking his work like nobody's business though. You'll certainly want to make sure that he doesn't take shortcuts in an effort to cut time and/or cost off the job.
Just remember that soon you will have the baddest 695 in the history of the world. Too bad you don't have a second bike to keep your mind off not riding.
What brand of wheels are those? They look like carrozzeria forged Al wheels. Are those stock forks which have been coated black or something else? Are those radial brakes? You have definitely put some money into this bike.
Be persistent, I had my S4Rs in the dealership for 9 whole make the beast with two backsing months and they didn´t do jack. In the end I got a happy solution but it was a pain in the ass.
Not a lot you can do now except take him at his word.
Sounds like both he and you are on a learning experience. It sounds like he needs a lesson in time management but it also sounds like he is admitting he screwed up. He still sounds committed to seeing this project through to the end. It looks like it's just assembly issues now.
It's going to be a great looking bike. Patience Grasshopper ;)
Quote from: ducati_steve on May 09, 2008, 06:56:06 AM
Yeah, he got his timing all screwed up, but judging by this last email (and if he follows through with what he said), he seems professional enough to keep dealing with. You're in the home stretch, so I say hang in there.
+1
You're in custom bike building land, when it comes to time and money, those are hard to get an accurate estimate.
I would be more concerned about getting good quality work.
If this is your first experience building a bike, you're to be commended for both your patience and your vision. The bike looks like it'll turn out very well. Any chance you'll have a garage and some tools in your future? I'd hate to see you go down this road twice, and certainly don't deal with this guy again, despite his good intentions. Being in business means managing time and resources, and this guy fails on both counts. All that aside, I agree with the other posts here. You're in the home stretch (hopefully) and should be riding soon. I just hope this guy hasn't closed his shop permanently and left you hanging out to dry. Keep camped out at his door and make sure your bike gets done, then ride off into the wind. Good luck.
All - thanks for the compliments and advice.
To answer a couple questions:
1) This is my my first bike, so also my first attempt to mod or build a bike
2) I won't have a garage or tools anytime soon but I will before I do this again
3) The big thing for me is that this is like the 8th time that this has happened where it was going to be built "tomorrow" and not happened
4) The wheels are indeed the Carrozzeria forged aluminum V-Stars. I like them, but they are heavier than advertised and they used the DSS front to match with the SSS wheel rather than making a new one so they look a little funny together
5) The suspension is a GSXR swap, with AWESOME spacers made by qfactor from the old board (thanks a lot buddy). I had them anodized and pulled apart with new
Lastly, and I know this is being redundant, but does anyone think that the swingarm is angled too high the way its sitting? This is very important because they were custom making the top of the ex-box exhaust to fit through the swingarm appropriately ( I know, i know, i should have just bought the one for the 800, but I already had this one in ceramic black and John convinced me that they could make it fit easy and do it cheaper (while keeping the money local on the welder rather than to quat-d)
edit- as I wrote that thing he called me and said that welding the ex-box was the problem...and he still hasnt re-painted the engine....
The rear does look a little high but part of that will be that you have no tires on your bike. Once you get tires on it won't look so bad. I'm hoping that you have a ride height adjuster added to your bike and a custom shock, if so you should be able to adjust the rear end height if it is too high for you. Make sure you have room to adjust down or up from where it is now or you could run into trouble.
I agree with mxwinky, don't slack on this, be there straight after work. To reiterate, remain calm and get a list of work to be completed to a reasonable level of detail. Then you can work out from there how long it'll take and account for delays. He may be a great mechanic but that doesn't mean he's good at managing his time. This means that you have to do it or just wait.
Good luck.
The saga continues...
I went in there on Saturday and nothing had been done to my bike. The engine (unfinished) was still in the frame and everything else was off. John was working on someone else's bike that he apparently also dropped the ball on, understandable if he hadnt claimed I was the only priority in the email.
After standing there and staring into the abyss for awhile he explained that he hadnt been truthful with me because he didnt want to upset me since he had done nothing, and apologized for breaking trust. He asked what he could do for me, and I said "work on my bike" to which he replied that the sooner i left so he could finish the other bike the sooner he could get to mine. I explained that this sounded great but it was probably the 6th different bike he's said that about. I also said that this project could have been completed in late march before the rush and he agreed. He brought up the concept of compensating me back on the bill, gave me his word that I'd see progress if I came back at noon Sunday.
Went there at 12:45 Sunday and he wasn't there.
He called me at 5pm and told me a bunch of stuff was done and he would call me today with an update.
Should I be giving him a cutoff date? The thing is, if he worked on this efficiently for a full day itd be done.
And what should I be thinking of for "compensation" on the bill?
We've had 3 weeks straight of great weather and as of this thursday its supposed to rain for 7 days....
WoW!
I think you are now entitled to Saint-hood [thumbsup]
He sounds like a poor organizer, & maybe it's your job to be the squeaky wheel ;D
Keep us posted... It's looking great [thumbsup]
Dude,
sorry to hear about all this crap-ola...
Hope you'll be back on the road soon.
Q
Maybe it's time to bring in someone who might work on it more efficiently. Just surprise your current screw-up, I mean, mechanic. Maybe call another shop to get an estimate, then bring the guy in to see what has been done and what needs to be done.
If that doesn't burn your current mechanic in the pants, then just cart it all up and bring it to the other guy (if the estimate is reasonable).
Desperate times require desperate measures.
I dunno... If the guy's doing quality work, at a reasonable price, then it sounds like he just needs some encouragement to GIT BIZZY ;D
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on May 12, 2008, 06:46:27 AM
He sounds like a poor organizer, & maybe it's your job to be the squeaky wheel ;D
'sounds like you're just going to have to stand over him.
everyone responds to different negotiation tactics.
he already knows he can get away with lying on the phone and by email.
i love the suggestion of bringing another mechanic to his shop to give you a quote.
RE: the rear height - dont forget that there is no weight at all on the rear shock, so it it is fully exteneded. That added to the fact that there is no tire, it looks like a big gap.
I would show up and check on it personally once in while,phone calls are good but i would rather show my face and really see how things are progressing. ;)
I went in yesterday and there was a legitimate amount of work done. If he completes last night and this morning what he said he would, then the bike is close to finished.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 13, 2008, 06:44:18 AM
I went in yesterday and there was a legitimate amount of work done. If he completes last night and this morning what he said he would, then the bike is close to finished.
WoW!!! Sounds like we're close to a happy ending [thumbsup]
PICTURES, or it doesn't exist [thumbsup]
I'll definitely be posting pictures once it is finished, though not in this thread since this is a conflict thread and I don't want to shart on the guy putting my bike together as I show it off. Upon completion this thread shall die.
I'm not a hater ;D
MAN, I hope it works out for you at the end, and whatever you do don't ever go back to this clown.
Too bad you are not in Southern California, plenty of help around here, besides is legal to "split lanes" in traffic.
You're almost there, man.
Later.
The good news:
it sounds good and looks good.
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/?action=view¤t=MVI_0558.flv
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/IMG_0557.jpg)
One problem is that the engine paint blistered a little on the pipes near the engine. Perhaps it didnt cure properly? Any ideas?
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/IMG_0559.jpg)
Another thing we noticed is that the kickstand is leaving the bike at a very aggressive angle now. We lowered the suspension but it is still leaving it standing at quite the angle.
The bad news:
it still isn't finished
The worse news:
So far to this guy I have paid approximately 2400 dollars in $$$ and part for labor swap. Out of the 2300+, the parts that he bought were:
rear tire
250 to powdercoater
250 to welding the ex box to fit
brake pads
a chain
a rear sprocket
probably a couple miscellaneous small parts like banjo bolts, etc
vht paint (btw despite my specific instructions that were repeated he bought a different brand)
I went upstairs to check the curing instructions on the engine online at the end of the night and his girlfriend had laid out the bill saying I had almost 5K left to pay, with a gross labor charge of $6000
Two deposits ago, he said that I had already covered up to where we were, and that thisdeposit covered the prep and painting. I said after the deposit I said: "How many hours are we looking at left here?" He said 6. I said let's call it 8. He said ok, we'll say 8 and come in under and leave you happy.
Now we are at approximately 5K left? I'm 25 and not rich- not even CLOSE. I worked through this with him in conversations and all the sudden I saw this BOMB of bullsh!t?
I brought the bill downstairs and told him I was in shock and that he and I had specifically discussed this. At first he said the bill was "more than reasonable", then after i started talking with him he said "tell you what" and he tore it up and said he and his girlfriend and I would sit down together and talk about it, noting though, that everything goes through her, and wanting to know where i thought it should be so that he could talk to her. I just reiterated that I was in shock, and that he and I had discussed this months ago.
What the hell am I supposed to do?
I need a garage and tools :-(
wow. just wow.
did you get an initial quote in writing? going from 6-8 to 60 hours (at $100/hour) is not an acceptable practice
also if he used vht paint on the pipes it will all burn of very quickly. near your engine the pipe can reach temps in excess of 1000F (ever see them glow? that starts around 1100F). your only option for the pipes is ceramic coating.
I'm sorry that this his happening dude. To be honest, you're getting into lawyer territory if the guy's not willing to work with you on costs. Sounds as though you should be discussing with the girlfriend and not him. Also, you'll want anything you have in writing.
Good luck.
Ok. Like you, I'm prepared to go so far... but then no further.
Basically, my strategy would be to make things sooooo uncomfortable for him that the ONLY thing he wants to do is finish your bike, and get it out of the shop for the price you agreed upon.
1. I would write all of this down in a formal document. Refer to any emails that you still have, and refer back to all of the conversations you've had with this guy (specially about parts/labor etc). For example, when you agreed on the price,.. did you email any friends to tell them about the great deal you'd organized?
2. email a copy to him.
3. contact consumer affairs (of the equivalent government department). In Australia, it is possible to lodge a complaint for as little as $60. Most businesses will bend over backwards to avoid going before consumer affairs - it goes on their record etc, looks bad. Also, given what you've told me, consumer affairs would most likely side with you.
$5000 for labor? What, $100 per hour for 50 hours? I don't think so.
If consumer affairs doesn't exist, you might want to think about getting a lawyer to draft a formal complaint, and ship THAT off to him.
Remember! His pain is your gain! When the work is done, you have it checked by a dealer - make sure it is all up to spec.
[thumbsup]
Absolutely on that. I try not to involve a lawyer if I dont have to ($$$) but absolutely do not get swept under the rug on this.
He gave you an approximate quote 10-15% over is acceptable, a little more than that is reasonable if there were big problems. Outside of that, he's a contractor and made an estimate. This is his bad, and he needs to cut his losses.
I can not stress this enough, do not give him even the slightest hint that this invoice is acceptable.
If you agreed on 8 hours, I can see accepting a bill with 10, plus any additional parts needed.
Justin
Quote from: aaronb on May 20, 2008, 06:14:15 AM
wow. just wow.
did you get an initial quote in writing? going from 6-8 to 60 hours (at $100/hour) is not an acceptable practice
also if he used vht paint on the pipes it will all burn of very quickly. near your engine the pipe can reach temps in excess of 1000F (ever see them glow? that starts around 1100F). your only option for the pipes is ceramic coating.
They were ceramic coated but because of all the welding and stuff and to keep it uniform we vht'd the box and pipes. Any ideas how to keep this from looking like garbage?
Quote from: A.duc.H.duc. on May 20, 2008, 06:35:30 AM
Absolutely on that. I try not to involve a lawyer if I dont have to ($$$) but absolutely do not get swept under the rug on this.
He gave you an approximate quote 10-15% over is acceptable, a little more than that is reasonable if there were big problems. Outside of that, he's a contractor and made an estimate. This is his bad, and he needs to cut his losses.
I can not stress this enough, do not give him even the slightest hint that this invoice is acceptable.
If you agreed on 8 hours, I can see accepting a bill with 10, plus any additional parts needed.
Justin
The problem is that these agreements were made with a handshake not on paper. I dont think he will lie about it though, unless his girlfriend makes him. I know last night when I was talking to him he didn't disagree. I forgot about the 6 and 8 hour conversation until after I talked to him and snapped out of my coma so that specific part didnt come up but the rest did.
My condolences, this looks like it`s going to turn nasty [bang]
Bike does look great though [thumbsup]
BTW, his rate is 55/hr for labor.
Anybody know someone who could quote me out an estimate of the work?
I'd ask Leslie at BCM but I'd feel bad since he is a solid 3 hours away and won't actually be getting to DO the work...
Perhaps I should call him anyway...
My sympathy is going out to you right now. I had a 93 Mustang LX 5.0 done like this about 4 years ago. Worst part is the guy was a good friend. I ended up having to get a lawyer involved as he wouldn't release my car. He came to my job with a couple of his goons...It was not pretty. Needless to say he is no longer in business as he burned so many people. I really hate when honest, trusting and generally good people get burned. I really hope this works out for you. Good luck mang!!!
paradisecity, I haven't responded to this thread for good reason, I haven't been able to think of any good advice. Well, here goes anyway.
I think two things went wrong here. One is you have no contract for the work being done. The other is, I believe, the person doing the work is in over his head and cannot absorb the loss. Plus he has your bike. This puts both of you between a rock and a hard place. You will either have to come to an agreement with him that will make neither of you happy or take legal action. Between a lack of documentation and the reality that his tapable resources are probably limited legal action is probably not a good idea. Do speak to a local lawyer anyway so you know what your options are.
By the way, I have made similar mistakes, know better, but probably will do so in the future. Just my trusting nature. Good luck!
Just talked to him on the phone. He offered to drop a grand on it. I politely asked for an itemized bill. He said it would take him a couple days to put one together! and he'd get it to me by thursday.
I would start calling a lawyer...just me.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 20, 2008, 12:19:03 PM
Just talked to him on the phone. He offered to drop a grand on it. I politely asked for an itemized bill. He said it would take him a couple days to put one together! and he'd get it to me by thursday.
bullshit. takes an hour. there happens to be 24 available in a day.
he needs to burn the midnight oil and get the bike done in 1 week, or you + some friends + a truck should pick go pick it up, and get the hell out of Dodge with it.
I'm the guy who would get a lawyer, tell him to stop all work, pay him ZERO additional dollars, and take it elsewhere. His bad business practices hurt the motorcycle community. You are being far too patient a person with somebody who can't set their shit straight.
"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" (Repeat 5x, yelling it out an open window)
First find out if he has a lagit bussiness licence to work on bikes. If he don't then no need to get a lawyer. Just go get your bike and take him to small clames court and get all your $$$$ back.
Good Luck
I'd like to know how this all started, how you know him, what was the plan for mods, what was the plan for payment, ect.
It sounds like this guy is in over his head, if you had a very casual aggreement and a very vague project plan for the bike in the begining, then I would like to hear all the details.
It sounds and looks like you got a lot of custom work done, that usually runs a lot of $$. I'm not saying you're in the wrong, or that he is, I'm just seeing a lot of posts here calling for lawyers. I'd just like to hear a bit more information about the begining of this entire thing.
Quote from: pt33 on May 20, 2008, 01:59:57 PM
I'd like to know how this all started, how you know him, what was the plan for mods, what was the plan for payment, ect.
It sounds like this guy is in over his head, if you had a very casual aggreement and a very vague project plan for the bike in the begining, then I would like to hear all the details.
It sounds and looks like you got a lot of custom work done, that usually runs a lot of $$. I'm not saying you're in the wrong, or that he is, I'm just seeing a lot of posts here calling for lawyers. I'd just like to hear a bit more information about the begining of this entire thing.
+1 to that
This is one of the most painful threads I've ever read. A lot of people are playing nice with you on this thread, but it’s time for a reality check. You've really made some huge mistakes. You're a broke dick 25 year old on your first bike and you give a stranger a blank check for mods? The bill you’re negotiating is worth more than the bike.
You mention the suspension is a “GSXR swap out� What guarantee do you have that the suspension is suitable for the bike? If it's sitting up so high that it's about to fall over and the height is all the way down, there is something wrong and it could be dangerous.
Being your first bike and you have no garage; you can expect to have it knocked over in the parking lot. It’s also likely that you’ll drop it or lay it down as you’re acquiring riding skills. Insurance won't pay a nickel on the labor cost of the mods and you’ll be real lucky to get .50 on the dollar for any parts. Not to mention your warranty is probably out the window (if you have a warranty), but that’s the least of your worries.
To add icing on the cake, this clown is f_*&ing you in the ass and he’s not even kind enough to use lubricant. I’d be real worried when he does finish it, you could have a real bomb on your hands. You got to find an out immediately and lawyering up isn’t likely to settle the score and it certainly won’t lower the bill. It's a little late now, but someone should have said "go easy dude, it's your first bike".
It started by getting a few things fixed . But since he wasnt fixing stuff i started buying some mods and talking to him about it. After a little while he came to the conclusion that we were doing a lot so he wanted to sit down and establish where we were, and cut off what was going to be done. We did that and he estimated 6 hours to put it back together, since I had paid him for everything else already. I said itd be more like 8. Ok, say 20. At 55 bucks an hour he's saying that its taken him over 70 hours to put the bike together.
I'm not really sure the amount of "custom work" other than painting the engine with a rattlecan, which was included in previous deposits. The exhaust was custom welding but it didnt need to be. He guaranteed me that he could get it done for less than just buying a different one (the one for the 800) and sending that one back (250 bucks would have been my cost. This cost was also included in a previous deposit).
The rest is putting a bike back together with new pieces. It takes just as long to put together a bike with carrozzerias as it does with Marche's....cyclecats as OEM...etc. Will it take a little longer because of the different parts? Yeah, sure. But they are still bolt on.
BigTime- definitely a learning experience for me. Some of the stuff you speak of is definitely true. I appreciate your candor
This is not the first story I've heard about a guy having a pseudo-friend, pseudo-amatuer do work and it turning out badly. (by the look of his "shop," it's basically like the garage on a house?)
Amatuers always underestimate how hard things will be, and then you get into a situation where you have to either pay a lot more, or convince them to do double the work for the same price.
I think the moral here is that you should do your work yourself, or just step up and pay the real pros (the ones with a labor rate at more like $100 an hour, and who don't use rattle cans for paint...).
Also, +1 to the earlier comment about how a bike perpetually parked outside is destined to be knocked over. I know! Be happy if this happens less than once per season.
My bike was out all season and never got tipped.
It helps to have a driveway that isnt wide open on the road
one season? give it time...
This is going to hurt your wallet no matter what you do. The shop has a bunch of your money and your bike parts and your bike , while you have . . . an "argument" that you shouldn't have to pay what the shop demands. It difficult to follow your argument, though. Did the shop do more work than you ordered? Did the shop grossly exceed the estimate and fail to notify you? Did the shop pad the number of hours that it worked on the bike? Whatever it is, the argument needs to be clear. And, of course, it's worthless if it doesn't work to your advantage legally.
If I were you, I would consult a lawyer to get a gut-check on my legal position - just so I knew where I stood with the shop and the problem of getting my bike back!
Holly sh!t Balls!!! I just read this whole thread and I have to say it is the worst I have heard of in a long time. I mean we all get raped when we go to shops to get some work done, but this is outrageous. You need to make sure you get you bike back man. I would be worried this boy leaves the closed sign up while he works on other people bikes just so he doesnt have to see you. I mean if he doesnt have a ligitimate business licence he could take your bike and say he has never seen you before. Especially if you havnt been paying with a credit card. He just taking the cash and laughing.
From what I have heard of this guy he sounds like a greasy, un-trustworthy loser with a coked out GF. Maybe not but thats the image I get. Remember its always the nicer of the two thats the real asshole behind it all.
Reminds me of a time I got a dirtbike rebuilt in a quasi-legit shop because I didnt have time to do it myself. Buddy took forever, did a hack job and raped me. The bike blew up not 10 hours later (ride time not actual time). And I have since spoke to people that have had similar work donr by that loser. Unfortunatly it is owned by the "bikers", so its likely for money laundering and isnt going down anytime soon.
Just me, but I would get my bike out of there. Bring another mechanic, get a quote, get it in writing, let the new legite Co. truck the bike to their shop and get working. You will likely hear that the work he has done is not to a satisfactory standard, and this will help you win a court case. If you just get him to knock the price down, pay it and ride off the problem is all yours now. You will ikely have problems down the road and this duesch bag will have a comment like, "we dont warranty CUSTOM work". Then your screwed with a bike that looks like ass (paint flaking... ALREADY) and is probably unsafe.
TELL HIM TO STOP WORKING
GET A QUOTE FROM A TRUSTWORTHY SHOP
GET THE BIKE OUT OF THIER
CHECK TO SEE IF HE HAS A BUSINESS LICENCE
TALK TO A LAYWER (AFTER MENTIONED STEPS ABOVE HAVE BEEN DONE); If you talk to the lawyer first he will just get the job done and you out if his hair. Then your stuck with his shitty craftsman ship forever.
Best of luck man. I really feel your pain on this one. You got some of the best parts out there to work with. Just give them to the right people to get them on.
PS. I love BigTime's post. But have you looked at his signature ;D
I'm usually the last one to use "I told you so", but man, I saw this coming clearer than I saw a long protracted war in Iraq (called that one from the beginning). Listen, getting another mechanic to do an estimate is the only way to go. Before, in this thread, I said bring one in to scare your current mechanic. Now, it's time to bring one in that you tell your current mechanic is "a friend". Get his opinion privately and take it from there. Who knows, maybe the current work is good and just needs a little time. OR maybe you're gonna need a lawyer. Either way, you have to somehow objectively determine what the status of your bike is.
Don't worry about the mistakes you've made in the past (don't take to heart what other people have been saying. Otherwise, you'll just get depressed. Heck, I'm getting depressed reading all these opinions only because I'm afraid they're all right). The only thing that is important is getting out as fast and as cheap as possible.
Paradiscity,
My "candor" was a little harsh, it's a learning experience. I'm a prick sometimes.
You have to cut your loses. Grab a truck and go down there with check for all of the hardware and 1/4 of the labor and take it out of there. Tell him that he didn't earn the labor he's quoting and there is no negotations. Take it to a reputable and have it put together right.
Once he's done you'll have a lot less negotiating power and you probably have no recourse if he did a crappy job. I still don't know what you meant by "GSXR swap out" for the suspension, but don't under estimate how dangerous a bike can be when the wrong supsension pieces are forced into places they don't belong. The fact that the bike is tall on the side stand and leaning is a symptom that the rear could be too high.
Based on what I've read, you only talked with the mechanic about the costs. Had you ever talked to the GF about costs? Sounds like she just made up a number because her boyfriend was having so much trouble putting your bike back together. It does not take $6000 to put a bike back together. Based on what you stated,
"Two deposits ago, he said that I had already covered up to where we were, and that this deposit covered the prep and painting. I said after the deposit I said: "How many hours are we looking at left here?" He said 6. I said let's call it 8. He said ok, we'll say 8 and come in under and leave you happy."
At the most you owe him $440 (8 hours at $55/hr).
He hasn't been honest with his girlfriend and that is not your fault. He may not have even told her about the $2,400 you have paid so far. He may try to deny what he has told you if his girlfriend is in the room. I would first see if he agrees with what you remember. If he does, then give him $440, roll your bike into a van, pick up your parts and leave.
Bring a couple of friends with you in order to make the job as quick as possible.
Take it to your local Duc shop to see what they think needs to be done to finish or fix.
You probably don't want to hear this but for *that* amount of money, you could've;
Bought most of your tools,
Fixed up your bike.
Realized you did it all wrong.
Fix it up again.
Mess up your own paint (What professional uses a rattlecan?)
And have it together and working months ago. Plus you'd still have your tools.
Paradiscity, after you have your bike back I'll buy you a beer [beer] and I'll tell you about a Jeep CJ5 that I bought against my brother's advice. Oh yeah, he's a mechanic. It was pretty sad back then and I took a bath! [bang] But it's pretty funny now . . . . [laugh]
Quote from: someguy on May 20, 2008, 07:26:17 PM
You probably don't want to hear this but for *that* amount of money, you could've;
Bought an S4R
most of your tools,
Fixed up your bike.
Realized you did it all wrong.
Fix it up again.
Mess up your own paint (What professional uses a rattlecan?)
And have it together and working months ago. Plus you'd still have your tools.
fixed it for you :-\
Quote from: aaronb on May 20, 2008, 07:35:09 PM
fixed it for you :-\
Don't ever say that! Every person on this board owns a bike with way too many mods on it. Probably the majority of us could have used the money to buy the next model higher, but we didn't realize it at the time we originally bought the bike. Pointing that out to us now just makes us all look like assholes! ;D
It's hard to even find original parts on my bike. Would I rather have an S4R? YES! Of course! Don't remind me of my stupidity!
Quote from: Alex on May 20, 2008, 07:50:26 PM
Don't ever say that! Every person on this board owns a bike with way too many mods on it. Probably the majority of us could have used the money to buy the next model higher, but we didn't realize it at the time we originally bought the bike. Pointing that out to us now just makes us all look like assholes! ;D
It's hard to even find original parts on my bike. Would I rather have an S4R? YES! Of course! Don't remind me of my stupidity!
I have a stock S4R ;D
The SSSA and the suspension swap seems pretty custom to me, not bolt on by any means....
Custom exhaust, takes time and skill to do it right.
Just sayin'
I hate to play Monday morning QB here, but the stuff i mention above; I would not take my bike to get that done by a guy who charges $55/hr and has to clear his billing with his g/f.
The fact that he charges $55/hr, says to me that there is a big possibility that it actually took the guy 40-50+ hrs to get that done.
You get what you pay for :-\
I wish hope that this turns out for the better :-\
g' luck [thumbsup]
Quote from: Alex on May 20, 2008, 07:50:26 PM
Don't ever say that! Every person on this board owns a bike with way too many mods on it. Probably the majority of us could have used the money to buy the next model higher, but we didn't realize it at the time we originally bought the bike. Pointing that out to us now just makes us all look like DMF'ers;D
It's hard to even find original parts on my bike. Would I rather have an S4R? YES! Of course! Don't remind me of my stupidity!
Fixed It ;)
Quote from: pt33 on May 20, 2008, 08:23:01 PM
The SSSA and the suspension swap seems pretty custom to me, not bolt on by any means....
Custom exhaust, takes time and skill to do it right.
Just sayin'
I hate to play Monday morning QB here, but the stuff i mention above; I would not take my bike to get that done by a guy who charges $55/hr and has to clear his billing with his g/f.
The fact that he charges $55/hr, says to me that there is a big possibility that it actually took the guy 40-50+ hrs to get that done.
You get what you pay for :-\
I wish hope that this turns out for the better :-\
g' luck [thumbsup]
A couple pieces to note here, some relating to this post and others to other posts:
The closest Duc dearlership is 3 hours away, just so everyone knows.
This mechanic HAD good references in the community.
As of this spring, the opinion of him has changed for many people besides me.
He wasnt running his girlfriend in the operation for me until the shit starting hitting the fan, so how am I supposed to know that.
The shop is actually very large (and not a garage on a house, haha), just very dirty, and as a hard, honest worker who has an unclean workplace I have never faulted anyone for that
Putting on a SSS to a 695 is the equivalent to putting on a SSS to an 800 and then swapping the front sprocket. It was documented on the old board by both me and Mr. Wayne, his with pics and he did his in his old garage and spoke to its relative ease. It isnt rocket science and if I had known it would turn into this ordeal I would have convinced a friend to mess around in his garage and try it with me.
The only reason the exhaust is "custom" is because he convinced me NOT to return the one I had and get the bolt up for the 800, saying multiple times he could do it as cheap or cheaper and give me the same product. You can't charge someone more after you assure them that. Thats not "custom". Thats called "practice".
The bike still isnt complete and he has an electrical unit (yellow end with red on it) that he hasnt found a mate for and has no idea what it goes to. God help me
You need to get your bike out of there. He *will* keep it until you pay him.
"The bike still isnt complete and he has an electrical unit (yellow end with red on it) that he hasnt found a mate for and has no idea what it goes to. God help me"
I'm sorry, but that is hilarious!
I have been getting very upset reading this thread and its not even my bike. But your comment at the end of your las tpost with the "god help me", made me laugh my fricken ass off
Honestly it sounds to me he's been putting your bike on the back burner and that his GF is trying to charge you for time on the bike that never happened.
I'd have to say at this point, you should cut your losses and get the bike out of there. It doesn't sound like they're going to get it done for you.
They should have provided you with some sort of overall estimate, and verbal is binding. After they went through the two deposits you made, they should have then given you another estimate and would need to have recieved authorization, either written or verbal, for them to continue to proceed, if they didn't have this, they're eating it. In some states, such as UT, they allow for an additional 10% to cover for shop supplies (although this really should be built in to their hourly labor rate). Ask them to substantiate all the time for that labor costs.
Quote from: bigtime on May 20, 2008, 05:49:59 PM
I still don't know what you meant by "GSXR swap out" for the suspension, but don't under estimate how dangerous a bike can be when the wrong supsension pieces are forced into places they don't belong. The fact that the bike is tall on the side stand and leaning is a symptom that the rear could be too high.
The GSXR swap just indicates swapping the monster forks for the GSXR ones, they are the same size, just require shimming of the axle, and spacers for brake rotors. It's a very common swap amoung monster owners with no ill effects other than some complaining about a overly stiff and perhaps harsh ride.
Justin
make the beast with two backs. I'm going out and buying some tools.
Best of luck dude. Get an itemized invoice that you can take to other shops and ask them if they think the time spent on certain things is reasonable. If he can't provide you with an itemized invoice, tell him you can't provide him with money.
Quote from: A.duc.H.duc. on May 21, 2008, 05:49:01 AM
The GSXR swap just indicates swapping the monster forks for the GSXR ones, they are the same size, just require shimming of the axle, and spacers for brake rotors. It's a very common swap amoung monster owners with no ill effects other than some complaining about a overly stiff and perhaps harsh ride.
Justin
Yes, and I changed my oil weight and am running with a spring that should match my weight well.
It sounds like the fate of your bike rests in the hands of your mechanic's girlfriend's hands (as does the fate of your mechanic's b@lls). I think you need to pull the ol' prisoner's dilemma on the guy, and get her as far away from the decision-making process as possible.
First, I think that your mechanic knows that he'd be screwing you by charging that amount - otherwise he would not put the blame on her. The reason he's trying to do it, is because if you're pissed, he'll never see you again - if she's pissed, no sugar tonight in his coffee.
So, try to get some one-on-one time with the guy and c a l m l y review where you stand. Take a very much "hey, I am not trying to screw you here, man. I just want my bike" attitude - even if you feel like caving his head in with pieces of your unassembled bike.
If he says "but my girlfriend...", say "I understand, but with all due respect to her, I made this deal with you, and not your girlfriend". In situations like this "I understand" are the most powerful two words in the English language. And ask him in your most believable, hat-in-hand, sincere, man-to-man way to honor his agreement. In other words give him a reason to disagree with his ballbuster of a girlfriend - hopefully, he's moral, just whipped.
Give it a shot. It's free, and unlike lawyering up first, there is no penalty if you are not successful - you can always get one if this doesn't work. Good luck...
You'll need to confirm the legality, but recording all future conversations would be a good idea.
You can document everything with no worries. In most states, only 1 person has to know a conversation is being recorded (hence police wire taps with informants), if you want to record phone calls.
Quote from: someguy on May 20, 2008, 08:59:48 PM
You need to get your bike out of there. He *will* keep it until you pay him.
+1, I wouldn't let the bike sit in this guys hands another day. Go get your bike and have a professional finish the work!
Do you really think he is just going to let me stroll off with my bike without paying that astronomical bill first?
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that he can legally keep it.
Your property, go reclaim it. Dispute his bill. If he has no work license, you owe him squat.
ATO- what is a work license? How do you know if a business has one? And what specific steps would you suggest in taking my bike back?
BTW, my current course of action is getting an estimate on the "6-8 hour" part of the work by a professional custom ducati builder who is well known for his award winning work, and believes that I am a victim of price gouging
I mean, does he have a legitimate business license?
If he does not, he's got no business insurance, and a lawyer for you would be a quick victory - he'd have to settle because he couldn't afford his own attorney (or at least, for very long).
Right, but how can you tell if they have a business license?
I mean, he has an ad in the yellow pages...
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 08:55:42 AM
Do you really think he is just going to let me stroll off with my bike without paying that astronomical bill first?
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that he can legally keep it.
Did you receive receipts for the what you paid him to date? If so, bring them with you when you go claim the bike. You have nothing to lose by calling this guy up and telling him you're picking the bike up later today. You may have to suck it up and pay him the additional 10hrs of labor that was previously agreed upon but if that gets the bike out of his shop, consider it money well spent. What's the worst that can come of this? The other altrenatives are to bring him to court which will take months and additional monies, or pay him the 5 grand (which is ridiculous).
Take the bike as is and cut your losses.
What I am saying is that I dont think he'd let me take the bike as is after paying him 10 hours of labor.
The 10 hours you'd be paying him would be for the unfinished re-assembly and only because you'd agreed to pay him that. Unless he can itemize (as someone else suggested) the $5k of work with verifiable items the he really doesn't have a leg to stand on. I hope you have receipts for the other payments you've made. Go there with the guys from the other Ducati shop in their truck, take a check for the work you agreed on (10 hours) and the receipts for money already paid and leave with your bike.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 09:48:15 AM
What I am saying is that I dont think he'd let me take the bike as is after paying him 10 hours of labor.
i could've taken your bike completely apart and put it back together in less than 10 hours.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 09:48:15 AM
What I am saying is that I dont think he'd let me take the bike as is after paying him 10 hours of labor.
Well then it sounds to me like I'm either missing part of the story, or you believe he deserves the money he's charging you? Or worse yet, you're waiting for him to finish your bike which sounds like a huge mistake. If you want your bike back, go get it!
every state has laws surrounding work done by mechanics. some require anything over x amount to be in writing. others require anything above x% of a given amount likewise be signed and agreed on before work can be done. contact a lawyer, learn the facts, then act accordingly.
Best of luck.
CWBY
Dude, I like the idea of insisting on an itemized bill and having a professional Ducati mechanic check out the work - what was done, the quality of the work, whether the bill is reasonable for the work done - and trying to negotiate with the shop for the parts and labor to date (I wouldn't let this guy work on the bike anymore!). But the fact remains that the shop has your bike and a bunch of your money to boot! How are you going to get it back? Either you can negotiate a fair price based on some argument other than "That's a lot of money!" or you'll have to threaten him with legal action to get him to budge. In my experience, a threat of referral to the State authorities or a lawsuit has more impact if it's printed on a lawyer's letterhead.
But seriously, that bike looks sweet in the pics!
EDIT: Up to 7 posts now! Wheeeee!
Quote from: Kroe on May 21, 2008, 10:12:46 AM
Well then it sounds to me like I'm either missing part of the story, or you believe he deserves the money he's charging you? Or worse yet, you're waiting for him to finish your bike which sounds like a huge mistake. If you want your bike back, go get it!
You are a shop owner. You are trying to charge someone 4 thousand dollars for something. They offer you a quarter of that and say they are taking their bike. Would you let them?
Thats what I mean.
So How am I going to try to get my bike back?To get my bike back I am going to use the other estimate and write (and present) a well written letter that I will more than likely share with all of you so that you can add comments and help me finalize it, with the end saying a declination of the offer presented will result in my taking alternaitve means of acquiring my motorcycle, through both the Better Business Bureau and the legal system.
and supposedly, the fax of an itemzied work time sheet is being sent over right now, so I shall attempt to share it with you all.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 10:50:38 AM
You are a shop owner. You are trying to charge someone 4 thousand dollars for something. They offer you a quarter of that and say they are taking their bike. Would you let them?
Thats what I mean.
wait, so am i just a regular, ethical shop owner or am i one that knows i'm trying to bill you for 10x the number of hours i actually should be?
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 10:50:38 AM
So How am I going to try to get my bike back?
To get my bike back I am going to use the other estimate and write (and present) a well written letter that I will more than likely share with all of you so that you can add comments and help me finalize it, with the end saying a declination of the offer presented will result in my taking alternaitve means of acquiring my motorcycle, through both the Better Business Bureau and the legal system.
i suggest you demand a detailed, itemized accounting from your "mechanic" that lays out exactly what you owe him before you even send him a letter with a comparative quote or threats of legal action.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 10:52:33 AM
and supposedly, the fax of an itemzied work time sheet is being sent over right now, so I shall attempt to share it with you all.
please do.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 10:50:38 AM
You are a shop owner. You are trying to charge someone 4 thousand dollars for something. They offer you a quarter of that and say they are taking their bike. Would you let them?
Thats what I mean.
So How am I going to try to get my bike back?
To get my bike back I am going to use the other estimate and write (and present) a well written letter that I will more than likely share with all of you so that you can add comments and help me finalize it, with the end saying a declination of the offer presented will result in my taking alternaitve means of acquiring my motorcycle, through both the Better Business Bureau and the legal system.
So before you go through months of legal action and additional cost to yourself what would be the harm of taking your receipts to this guys shop, along with cash for the 10hrs verbal labor agreement you made, and talking to him face to face? You could get answers about the cost% Comboy listed before hand. I believe he's right and that's good advice. If the guy refuses you then you can go the legal route. This solution could cost you no more than a phone call to your local better business bureau and a few hundred dollars.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 10:52:33 AM
and supposedly, the fax of an itemzied work time sheet is being sent over right now, so I shall attempt to share it with you all.
This will probably help you if you have to go the legal route but you backed yourself into a corner when you gave this guy carte blanche without a formal work order & written estimate. You need to hammer this guy on the verbal agreement you made.
Quote from: Kroe on May 21, 2008, 11:01:41 AM
So before you go through months of legal action and additional cost to yourself what would be the harm of taking your receipts to this guys shop, along with cash for the 10hrs verbal labor agreement you made, and talking to him face to face? You could get answers about the cost% Comboy listed before hand. I believe he's right and that's good advice. If the guy refuses you then you can go the legal route. This solution could cost you no more than a phone call to your local better business bureau and a few hundred dollars.
Well I offered the guy cash for 20 hours of labor and he said that it wouldnt begin to cover it, so me think 10 hours arent going to do. That is why I am waiting for an estimate from a 3rd party, and also waiting for his work invoice.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 11:14:07 AM
Well I offered the guy cash for 20 hours of labor and he said that it wouldnt begin to cover it, so me think 10 hours arent going to do. That is why I am waiting for an estimate from a 3rd party, and also waiting for his work invoice.
quit shooting yourself in the foot by offering him more money and call an attorney.
Quote from: derby on May 21, 2008, 11:49:18 AM
quit shooting yourself in the foot by offering him more money and call an attorney.
I will be after the estimate comes back and I present it and am refused. At this point I am building a case formyself by offering a fair offer and going out of my way to attempt to resolve the situation. My efforts will be rewarded should, god forbid, legal action be necessary.
Remember, lawyers cost money too. The threat of legal action is often more cost effective than the action itself.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 11:56:33 AM
I will be after the estimate comes back and I present it and am refused. At this point I am building a case formyself by offering a fair offer and going out of my way to attempt to resolve the situation. My efforts will be rewarded should, god forbid, legal action be necessary.
Remember, lawyers cost money too. The threat of legal action is often more cost effective than the action itself.
Can you prove you offered him 20hrs/labor in cash?
This is absolutely crazy man your bike does look sweet though hope it all works out!!
anybody know how to attach a pdf to this so you guys can see this piece of B.S.?
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 01:32:23 PM
anybody know how to attach a pdf to this so you guys can see this piece of B.S.?
you'll have to upload it somewhere (like sendspace).
You can use a screen capture program, or print screen, then make it a jpg, and upload it to a flickr account or other image hosting site.
mitt
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 01:32:23 PM
anybody know how to attach a pdf to this so you guys can see this piece of B.S.?
I have a screen capture program. If you need to, send it to me and I'll take a pic and post it.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/f58plz (http://www.sendspace.com/file/f58plz)
Looks like that worked.
Note that he specifically told me that he could get the set of tires for 300 because I told him that I could get them for that price. He guaranteed the exhaust work at 250, and all prepping and painting was already supposed to be "covered"
He charged me 250 dollars for "cleaning" because i told him that his shop was so dirty that my bike was getting disgusting and needed to be cleaned.
He charged me 100 bucks to package my forks to be shipped ( I wanted to ship them myself) and another 45 for postage (he wsaid he would eat that charge months ago because he wasted two weeks not sending them out and we needed them to build the bike). Another 100 bucks for "shop supplies" even though they are already detailed out and 40 for "hazmat?" (maybe that one is real I dont know).
Apparently, attaching a rear master cylinder takes 3.25 hours.
I could go on and on.
Also note that he now decided that the deal for parts for 11 hours of labor that we made 5 MONTHS ago, he decided he is no longer honoring it. We had a 30 minute conversation on the phone that got heated a little bit ago, where he said "i was wrong" (referring to himself) when he said I was covered up to the point of the engine being painted and only needing another 6-8 hours. Apparently he thinks I should pay for that.
And lastly, or course, id the note up top.
ooooh every time i look i see a new one- "evaluate exhaust" 162.50
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 01:44:28 PM
Also note that he now decided that the deal for parts for 11 hours of labor that we made 5 MONTHS ago, he decided he is no longer honoring it. We had a 30 minute conversation on the phone that got heated a little bit ago, where he said "i was wrong" (referring to himself) when he said I was covered up to the point of the engine being painted and only needing another 6-8 hours. Apparently he thinks I should pay for that.
And lastly, or course, id the note up top.
again, i hope you recorded that.
monster 695 does not have:
a speedo gear assembly - save 1.25 hours
a carburettor - save 1.25 hours
$250 for powdercoating and $82.50 in travel time?
2 hour customer consultation? he's billing you for talking now?
i'm too lazy to go over this list, but a lot of this labor overlaps. he's make the beast with two backsin' ya pretty good here.
CALL AN ATTORNEY!!!
At least it says 'thank you for your business'
You should trade him bike work for html work, his website sux.
A couple quotes from it...
"People want to know the story behind a business. On this page we will detail our company history and describe what makes us the best service company in the area. Please remember that the names have been changed to protect the guilty.
Our Service
We are dedicated to serving our customer's needs, and our goal is 100% customer satisfaction. We strive to bring you the best in quality service, and if something isn't right, please let us know."
And my favorite...
"There isn't a bike that I can't fix...how long it'll take is a different question."
You are going to need to figure out best case and worst case, and settle.
Maybe his bill is high, but probably not $3000 too high. What is a realistic bill for that work, I don't know. I do know what I have paid for labor at my shop, and for something realitively simple, it can get to $1000 pretty quick. I imagine if my dealer did all of what you had done, it would be in the $4k range. Can you hire an attorney and still pay a reasonable bill for less than the current bill - I don't know.
mitt
Well, he has my old forks, my old rear wheel, my old rear brake, my old front brakes, and my old front wheel that I supposedly traded for 11 hrs of labor at 65.00/hr, so if he doesnt actually go back on our deal thats another 715 off the bill.
Mitt, I agree but there are some outrageous charges on that bill; see Derby's reply (my favorite was the $250 charge for finding a powder coater). Either way I can't imagine a shop that would do this without clearing nearly 5k worth of work without written approval.
ParadisC, what you're looking at is a good old fashioned lube-free @ss rapin'. Contact your chamber of commerce for info on your local BBB. Then get some legal consultation to see where you stand. State your case to the shop owner (the GF) and advise them that this was not agreed upon and what your course of action will be.
Good luck
Kroe- actually the powdercoat for 250 is a legit charge (even though I already paid for it in our previous agreement). It was for the actual powdercoat.
Yep, there are some outrageous charges, but some are in line too.
I don't see the 250 for finding the powdercoater, I see 250 was paid to a powdercoater for powdercoating, and he is passing that to the customer.
What I am saying, is that the bill isn't 100% off, so if you adjust it, and say it should be 1000 less, can you pay for an attorney and time for that?
What was the OP originally thinking it would cost for a custom bike of this level?
mitt
This is a terrible story.
OK, I will say, your gonna get screwed either way. Sorry, but thats what I think will happen.
Things I see, is repeating charges under different names. EXAMPLE:
R/I Speedometer gear assy, and rebuild , should be under 1 charge
it does not take 3 hours to mount handlebars, unless they won't work period...
Why does it take 1.75 hours to mount a footrest?
what Derby said on consultation
He's nickel'n ya on the battery an other little stuff at .25 hours, when it should be like 5 minutes each
Rear master cylinder at 3.5 hours [roll]
It took him less time to bleed everything than it did to put it on at .65 hours WTF is that. Takes me a few minutes to put it on, and half hour each to bleed properly.
Front forks, to put back on dont take 2.5 hours, maybe to take them off rebuild them and put them back on would be closer.
driven sprocket damper and sprocket should be able to be done at the same time under the time of one.
Why are you using a 530 chain? Turbo? ;D
The things like evaluate, should be free
The only things I saw that i said, I can see that is the paint, and the exhaust fab work, everything else is padded.
Now how to prove that?
Quote from: mitt on May 21, 2008, 02:32:03 PM
Yep, there are some outrageous charges, but some are in line too.
I don't see the 250 for finding the powdercoater, I see 250 was paid to a powdercoater for powdercoating, and he is passing that to the customer.
What I am saying, is that the bill isn't 100% off, so if you adjust it, and say it should be 1000 less, can you pay for an attorney and time for that?
What was the OP originally thinking it would cost for a custom bike of this level?
mitt
Doh, sorry, I interpreted the powder coat outsourcing wrong! & agreed a customization of this magnitude was not going to be cheap.
PS, What have you paid them so far?
Christ. I don't know why everyone says months of legal action.
#1 Go see an attorney. Most consultations are free and you will learn something.
#2 After consultation the attorney will be able to offer advice and at minimum write a letter on your behalf outlining your position, the law and you're proposals. cost 2 hrs tops.
#3 The guy either decides to a. agree to your proposal b. negotiate or c. get an attorney. if C is his option then it was from the beginning and you saved yourself months of hassle.
IF the law is strongly on your side then you negotiate from a position of strength and potentially have the boys in blue there as you collect your bike.
Fact is You don't know the law or your rights. You need to learn that before you agree to spend 1 dollar more.
Quote from: COWBOY on May 21, 2008, 04:38:24 PM
Christ. I don't know why everyone says months of legal action.
#1 Go see an attorney. Most consultations are free and you will learn something.
#2 After consultation the attorney will be able to offer advice and at minimum write a letter on your behalf outlining your position, the law and you're proposals. cost 2 hrs tops.
#3 The guy either decides to a. agree to your proposal b. negotiate or c. get an attorney. if C is his option then it was from the beginning and you saved yourself months of hassle.
IF the law is strongly on your side then you negotiate from a position of strength and potentially have the boys in blue there as you collect your bike.
Fact is You don't know the law or your rights. You need to learn that before you agree to spend 1 dollar more.
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morbid curiousity has me coming back to this thread. I keep expecting to see a picture or link to a story about some guy's shop mysteriously burning to the ground.
Crex- hahaha
if you haven't noticed that isn't really my style. Until today I hadn't even raised my voice. At one point today he hung up on me very early on in the conversation. THEN, I started getting upset.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 11:56:33 AM
I will be after the estimate comes back and I present it and am refused. At this point I am building a case formyself by offering a fair offer and going out of my way to attempt to resolve the situation. My efforts will be rewarded should, god forbid, legal action be necessary.
Remember, lawyers cost money too. The threat of legal action is often more cost effective than the action itself.
Yap, it is the THREAT of legal action that is important.
Try not to get angry, loose your cool etc. Paradoxically, while you are nailing him to the wall, you want to be 'nice' about. Kind of like:
"Oh gee, well, I can see we aren't going to agree on hours. Tell you what, probably best if I get a 3rd party to look over your figures. Then I can have a friend of mine who is a lawyer look over everything, put it all into a legal context. Then I'll be able to make an informed decision. While all of that is being done, probably best not to do any further work on the bike."
However, and this is important, you have to be prepared to carry out legal action if push come to shove - even if it is as simple as dragging his ass to small claims court.
I had a situation with a new laptop - worked for one week, 9 weeks of hell. Two hours after i dropped off the small claims forms, I got a phone call offering full cash refund.
Good luck. [thumbsup]
I haven't read the whole thread, but what I have read makes me angry / disgusted.
Owning a shop myself, I can understand that problems can and do arise, however this asshat obviously has been putting the work off and now is in over his head and behind on his bills.
My best advice?
Get the bike out of there ASAP.
I'm not sure about how the laws work in your state, but in many, a mechanic can legally charge you storage fees, eventually accumulating enough to offset the value of the bike, at which point a mechanics lien can be filed.
As stated earlier, try reasoning with the shyster and see if he'll knock some, if not all of the additional charges off the bill.
If that won't work, pay him with Amex and immediately when you get home, dispute the charge and let them go to work for you.
You can say the bill was supposed to only be say $400.00 and he charged you $1400.00, but didn't see that on the receipt till you got home.
( You didn't hear me say that, because if you do it "premeditated" you can be guilty of fraud.)
In life, I've always tried to be as honest and ethical as I can. However through the years, I've found that sometimes the only way to deal with an unscrupulous person who is trying to get over on you is to be just as unscrupulous. This guy definitely warrants some comeuppance.
Good luck.
Dude, I don't know why you're screwing around with us on the DMF. You have a specific problem - the shop has your bike and he'll slap a mechanic's lien on it if he doesn't get paid to his satisfaction. He's not going to pay attention if you say "5891jonathan thinks you're padding the bill!" It's OK to get some basic facts about the work he did and whether a different mechanic would have charged less, but don't be thinking you can whip up a letter, incorporate some comments from us here at the DMF, and knock the guy over with your good looks. YOU NEED AN ATTORNEY WHO HAS EXPERIENCE IN THIS AREA. If you don't have an attorney of your own, get a referral from the bar association in your state. It's easy. I am a lawyer myself, but I ain't giving you legal advice here. I am talking to you like I would talk to my son. Quit fu<king around with us here and make an appointment with a lawyer tomorrow.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 21, 2008, 02:21:06 PM
Well, he has my old forks, my old rear wheel, my old rear brake, my old front brakes, and my old front wheel that I supposedly traded for 11 hrs of labor at 65.00/hr, so if he doesnt actually go back on our deal thats another 715 off the bill.
What the hell is wrong with you? You're STILL trying to make this work.
He has your bike, your money, and is currently setting up to keep both. You could not be getting make the beast with two backsed worse. You need to find a way to sort this out.
To echo everyone else-go get an attorney, or at the very least a consultation. They will tell you where you actually stand, because right now, you definitely don't know.
Seriously, knock this crap off-you've been given good advice multiple times. If you don't take it, you're going to basically deserve what you get, because at some point, you're doing it to yourself.
Quote from: c_rex on May 21, 2008, 05:20:47 PM
morbid curiousity has me coming back to this thread. I keep expecting to see a picture or link to a story about some guy's shop mysteriously burning to the ground.
+1000000000000000000000000000
Can't believe his shop isn't a pile of ashes.
You are a saint for letting it go this long.
I have issues w/ the legal system and suing but that being said a letter from a lawyer may be enough to get things moving.
Paradisecity, you need to stop ignoring all the advice you are getting on here, and get an attorney. What I see in your posts is a desire to avoid confrontation and just hope everything works out. That's understandable, but it is not going to help you. You have all of our sympathy, but you need to
STOP BEING A PUSSY.
Seriously, you need to take some bold steps here. Stop messing around and do what you know needs to be done. I promise that after talking to a lawyer you will feel like a huge weight is off your shoulders. Accept the fact that this is going to cost you, and do what needs to be done to avoid being screwed. Better to pay a lawyer to defend your rights than an asshole for violating them.
Okay everyone. Calm down. Let the guy think. Most of us can go through life without calling an attorney but once, maybe twice. It's a big deal to reach that step. Let him get the run around one more time, and I bet the attorney is on the phone. Let's give him a couple days before we slap him upside the head and call him a pussy...
I know we're all frustrated for him, but let's see how he plays this out. All I have to say is "Good luck! We're pulling for ya!"
Sorry, just trying to be motivating! :-[
At this point I think Derby's got some good advice for you.
I just read this. All of it. This mechanic has had possession of your bike for what, six months? He's going to charge you several thousands of dollars before you can get your bike back. There is bs smeared all over that itemized bill. You've tried to play nice with him for six months, man.
I'm going to bet that YOU WILL NEED TO TALK TO A LAWYER BEFORE YOU GET THROUGH THIS SO JUST DO IT NOW.
I talked to a lawyer this morning. A good one referred by my boss. He admitted this wasn't his area of expertise, and also said to be careful bringing a professional in because I'd be running up a major bill before I knew it.
He suggested paying under protest and after payment bringing it to small claims court.
Im inclined to agree with him (and Mitt) that costing out a lawyer wont geet me as far as either talking him down, or giving him potential options of 1. a hardline # or, 2 payment in full followed by small claims court, in which I would most likely be issued a judgment similar to the number hardline, and 3) negotiating with him, where I bet we'd end up around 2k, neither of us would be happy, I'd lose money (but not 4500 bucks) and take it as an expensive learning experience.
I do believe though, that as soon as he faxed me a bill charging me for parts that aren't included on my bike (carbs), that this became mail fraud....
actually, wire fraud, but that's another matter.
listen to everyone else. You need to involve an attorney and/or the cops. You're being extorted. Call people's court. ;)
best of luck
My thoughts:
1-It's a civil matter. No cops needed or appropriate. If you called me [leo] to his business, I would tell you it's a civil matter and leave.
2-All you have is a verbal contract which is your first HUGE error.
3-You need to go TRY to collect your bike. NOW. Pay what you feel was agreed on. He can then sue you for what he thinks you owe. If he refuses to release the bike you then need to immediately file a lawsuit.
4-Quit calling him on the phone. You can't record it unless he agree's to be recorded.
5-All of your correspondence should be on paper and sent registered (proves he got it) mail. If you don't have a document then it never happened. Type up an inital letter that covers the entire agreement that YOU thought you had. Offer to pay the agreed upon price.
6-Notify him that you are going to be reporting him to the appropriate State agency if he fails to satisfy your agreement.
Quote from: hbliam on May 22, 2008, 04:39:57 PM
My thoughts:
1-It's a civil matter. No cops needed or appropriate. If you called me [leo] to his business, I would tell you it's a civil matter and leave.
2-All you have is a verbal contract which is your first HUGE error.
3-You need to go TRY to collect your bike. NOW. Pay what you feel was agreed on. He can then sue you for what he thinks you owe. If he refuses to release the bike you then need to immediately file a lawsuit.
4-Quit calling him on the phone. You can't record it unless he agree's to be recorded.
5-All of your correspondence should be on paper and sent registered (proves he got it) mail. If you don't have a document then it never happened. Type up an inital letter that covers the entire agreement that YOU thought you had. Offer to pay the agreed upon price.
6-Notify him that you are going to be reporting him to the appropriate State agency if he fails to satisfy your agreement.
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Quote from: hbliam on May 22, 2008, 04:39:57 PM
4-Quit calling him on the phone. You can't record it unless he agree's to be recorded.
Way wrong. Already posted about this. Only one party must know that the conversation is being recorded. Hence, wire taps by the police are legal. That one party can be you. Tapping a conversation between two unknowing parties, that's not legal.
Get your bike out of there before he closes shop for good and moves away with your bike. That happened here in portland oregon. I went to a bike shop (small one) to get an estimate on work. I didnt get a good feeling from this guy so i bailed. 2 weeks later i went back to his shop to talk to him again and there was a notice on his door that the gas company shut off his gas, no lights on inside the whole place was deserted.....
then came the craigslists ads people asking if anyone knew where he was. He got behind, panicked and one night rented a truck and loaded everyones bikes in it and left the state.
Dude get your bike out now, whether you have to beg borrow or steal it back.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 22, 2008, 07:28:21 PM
Way wrong. Already posted about this. Only one party must know that the conversation is being recorded. Hence, wire taps by the police are legal. That one party can be you. Tapping a conversation between two unknowing parties, that's not legal.
..unless there is a more restrictive state law.
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/
Vermont
There is no legislation specifically addressing interception of communications in Vermont, but the state's highest court has held that surreptitious electronic monitoring of communications in a person's home is an unlawful invasion of privacy. Vermont v. Geraw, 795 A.2d 1219 (Vt. 2002); Vermont v. Blow, 602 A.2d 552 (Vt. 1991).
The state's highest court, however, also has refused to find the overhearing of a conversation in a parking lot unlawful because that conversation was "subject to the eyes and ears of passersby." Vermont v. Brooks, 601 A.2d 963 (Vt. 1991).
Quote from: ato memphis on May 22, 2008, 07:28:21 PM
Way wrong. Already posted about this. Only one party must know that the conversation is being recorded. Hence, wire taps by the police are legal. That one party can be you. Tapping a conversation between two unknowing parties, that's not legal.
Sorry. Didn't check which State he was in. Here in CA it's illegal without the consent of both parties.
In any State it would be questionable if the audio tape could be used as evidence in Court (which we be the only point in this case).
Quote from: derby on May 22, 2008, 08:42:22 PM
..unless there is a more restrictive state law.
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/
Vermont
There is no legislation specifically addressing interception of communications in Vermont, but the state's highest court has held that surreptitious electronic monitoring of communications in a person's home is an unlawful invasion of privacy. Vermont v. Geraw, 795 A.2d 1219 (Vt. 2002); Vermont v. Blow, 602 A.2d 552 (Vt. 1991).
The state's highest court, however, also has refused to find the overhearing of a conversation in a parking lot unlawful because that conversation was "subject to the eyes and ears of passersby." Vermont v. Brooks, 601 A.2d 963 (Vt. 1991).
No stipulation regarding business, so one would be in the clear until it was decided otherwise.
Option #1
small claims court items that go your way
double billing for accomplished labor
misbilling (ie carbs)
your "conversations" will be recounted for the judge under oath
suggest you get the bike now ,
determine what you think the currently accomplished work is worth and make him a written offer stipulating previous agreements blah blah have it sent registered with a reply / rebuttal date required in the document.
then pay by credit card to buy you time and tell him that you will be going to small claims court..no matter how much you paid unless it was for exactly what you offered
file for court
get ducati certified mechanic times for everything he listed out that was not modified. ie master cyl, handlebars, etc. take that and every shred of manhood and other documents on this arrangement you have to court
Hope for the best
Option #2
Let him have the bike and move on. I can't be the only one thinking this is an option. You are talking about 4 grand plus what you have in the bike already. Its at this point an uninsurable custom bike with a OE VIN #that maxes out the value at less than the mod costs.
Option #3
keep letting this guy walk all over you through his girlfriend, pay him less than what he wants but more than what you want to spend, enjoy a beautiful bike and hope not to hate it for the pain and misery ots obviously causing you.
I'm guessing this is not a lesson you will learn again. but I commend you for jumping in head first on the custom bike thing
I'm hoping for option 3 at this point.
The bike is still insurable unless I am missing something. I upped to aftermarket parts value on it by a few thousand with my insurance company.
I'm hoping to speak with the guy today.
Quote from: printman on May 21, 2008, 02:38:11 PM
Why are you using a 530 chain? Turbo? ;D
Honestly, I've done a ton of research and reading on this board and TOB to try to figure out the correct parts but on this one I didn't know so I told him to order the correct one.
Did he not? What effect will this have?
Its heavy. Heavy as shit.
I run a 520 on my M900.
Factory issue is a 525. 520 can and is used on everything, but say... 1098's.
Its defines the 'size' of the chain: 520/525/530 are the options. Left to right, lightest to heaviest.
Just think, that suckers bullet proof now, but you are dragging extra weight for absolutely no reason. It provides no benefits to your bike
where did he find 530 sprockets to match? i have never seen them.
I'm sure Chris at CA-Cycleworks can order 'em. Don't know who (in their right mind) stocks them though.
i will bring this up when I talk to him. I doubt that it is actually a 530 in this case, but knowing everything else he has f'd up it wouldn't surprise me.
Why don't you WALK away? Change that, RUN away! Let him have the bike. For what he's charging you could buy a new or one year old bike. There are plenty of great bikes you can buy for that price.
If you really want to f___ him, go down there and say you're ready to pay. Say you want to hear it one more time, take the key and break it, throw away the other keys (red included), burn the title, tell him to f___ off and walk.
If you owe the bank take your check for the mods and pay it off, get another loan and start over. You have no way of knowing that the paint won't flake, the suspension is right, or have any guarantees on the bike. You pay him $4k, $5k, $6k to get the bike back and you have no idea what you'll need to pay to fix his B.S. Most of the mods on your list are a complete waste of money for a first time rider. At this stage of your riding life there are better options. Snap out of it, walk, walk, walk, walk....
Quote from: bigtime on May 23, 2008, 06:08:35 AM
Why don't you WALK away? Change that, RUN away! Let him have the bike. For what he's charging you could buy a new or one year old bike. There are plenty of great bikes you can buy for that price.
If you really want to f___ him, go down there and say you're ready to pay. Say you want to hear it one more time, take the key and break it, throw away the other keys (red included), burn the title, tell him to f___ off and walk.
If you owe the bank take your check for the mods and pay it off, get another loan and start over. You have no way of knowing that the paint won't flake, the suspension is right, or have any guarantees on the bike. You pay him $4k, $5k, $6k to get the bike back and you have no idea what you'll need to pay to fix his B.S. Most of the mods on your list are a complete waste of money for a first time rider. At this stage of your riding life there are better options. Snap out of it, walk, walk, walk, walk....
I can tell your view is generally a realist with the glass perhaps just a touch more empty, but in this case I feel you may be going overboard a bit.
The mods that I am doing are happening because I want them to, because I want to change my bike into what I want it to be. It doesn't matter if they have me 2 seconds on a laptime, what matters is that I am happy with them and enjoy them and like the look and feel of my bike and am riding something that I can stay on for a long time.
While I have made some mistakes in this learning process, it is just that. I am not faultless in this equation and I need to understand that this lesson is going to cost me. With that being said, I am not going to walk away from something that I have invested a LOT of time and money into just to spite someone else. I am going to try every avenue possible to acquire my property as fairly as possible with an interest in time and money, in some particular order.
Sorry to hear about all your frustrations with this ... I can feel for you. I work on the other side of the desk on the automotive side, so I'd hate to see a customer of mine go through the same things. That being said... First thing ... going forward, PUT EVERYTHING INTO WRITING. And if you have a phone conversation, put it into writing as a letter as a "follow up as discussed" and mail it to him. You want to document this.
I've been involved where a customer is doing a classic restoration, the process is that the customer approves up to a certain amount, the work is done to that amount, and additional authorizations are required. Shops don't have Carte Blanche unless you tell them that. It sounds to me you were being reasonable by giving a deposit and that was where the initial
Although we all seem to know in our heads how long it takes to do a certain job, ie. 30 minutes to change the bars, etc, these are all just personal opinions. I would suggest going to either a reputable shop or the dealer, they all have standardized systems to be able to look up each. Manufactuers do provide this to their dealers, and I have seen my local Ducati dealer in their DMS system pick up labor ops for each item to total the time required for the job. This will give you a reasonable basis for each line item for the amount of time to be charged and it is no longer an "opinion." per se.
Charging you to clean his shop, that's ridiculous, that's already built into his labor rate and is a cost of doing business, period. The Hazmat is separate from shop materials, although to me, the shop materials is a BS charge but some states allow it.
My thoughts are that I would try and negotiate with him (you want to show that you're the one being reasonable) and ask him to substantiate with time punches any labor times that are significantly more than what the dealer guide tells you. And if the total was at least close to being within reason, pay the bill with the credit card, and dispute it later with the credit card company providing your documentation that you've been trying to be reasonable and he is trying ti rip you off. The goal here is to try and get your property back so you can get it to someone who car do the work properly.
If all else fails, then go to small claims court, but you want to show the judge you've been the one who is fair and reasonable.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 05:22:16 AM
I'm hoping to speak with the guy today.
Seriously? I wouldn't communicate verbally with him any more without a witness. In writing by certified letter would be much better.
A couple suggestions - we need a lessons learned sticky, and possibly a "how to not get screwed by a mechanic FAQ" once this is all done. Also, I nominate your bike for BOMB. I don't care if we have to look at a pile of parts against a backdrop of a smoldering repair shop, I expect a moment of well-deserved glory for your bike.
As for dealing with this guy from here on out, I am going to go back to my original post and suggest that you don't give this guy any reason to be defensive and justify these ridiculous charges. I would be afraid that once you get him defending himself it will be impossible for him to back down - If challenged, people find creative ways to justify the things they think, no matter how stupid. Right now, pointing out, for example, that you have a fuel injected bike and you are being charged for carb work is only going to make him feel like a schmuck and provoke him to prove himself as a legitimate mechanic/business man/non-schmuck. Even though you would be entirely justified in doing this, it does not serve the purpose of getting this thing behind you. This may not be the way you want to resolve it, but it seems to be the shortest distance between two points.
If I was in this scenario, I would not get into specifics. I would appeal on the basis that the original amount and the current charges are not anywhere close and push for a "settlement" amount. I just don't think itemizing the bill is going to get you there - you may win some battles, but you risk losing the war. I am not saying don't get a lawyer, especially if you exhaust all other options, but god:foxholes as lawyers: internet forums.
Good luck to you...
Quote from: hbliam on May 22, 2008, 04:39:57 PM
2-All you have is a verbal contract which is your first HUGE error.
Not true.
Once again, that depends on state law if verbal contracts are binding.
Quote from: pt33 on May 20, 2008, 08:23:01 PM
The fact that he charges $55/hr, says to me that there is a big possibility that it actually took the guy 40-50+ hrs to get that done.
You get what you pay for :-\
That is not true at all.
My mechanic charges 40/hr for all work (including dyno time.....which he has in his shop)
He is a reputable race engine building mechanic and a former racer himself.
He is very legit, very good, and reasonable pricing.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on May 23, 2008, 08:45:40 AM
Not true.
Once again, that depends on state law if verbal contracts are binding.
binding or not, still a huge error if you can't prove a verbal agreement existed.
All, please review and comment on the attached before I send it over. Thanks
John,
After our discussion on Monday night where you told me to get an estimate from another mechanic, I asked and paid for Stuart at Flightcycles to provide an estimate of the work needed to be done from the beginning since the estimate you gave me was from the beginning. I am providing this estimate to you here. As I stated before, Stuart is an award winning Ducati builder and mechanic whose reputation is excellent. I went from memory and provided a long list and put it in a word document. After you sent me your itemized invoice via fax, I passed that along as well in case I had forgotten anything that needed to be done so that he would not be leaving anything out. Stuart told me (and I’m sure would relay to you if you asked) that he tried to shoot a little on the high side because he has only seen pictures and does not have the bike in front of him, but feels confident in this estimate. He charges a labor rate of 10 dollars per hour more than your shop, and 20 dollars more per hour for parts that he purchased through his shop.
Please call me once you have had a chance to look this over. Since you are threatening to place a lien on my bike in the near future despite having provided me with the bill two days ago (a bike which I have not been told has been finished yet) I would ask that you please make this a priority and contact me back as soon as possible.
Thank you
Tom Paradis
Seriously, run that by your lawyer first. Do yourself a favor, and let them do the paperwork for you. You'll spend up front, but may end up saving a fortune.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 09:00:06 AM
All, please review and comment on the attached before I send it over. Thanks
John,
After our discussion on Monday night where you told me to get an estimate from another mechanic, I asked and paid for Stuart at Flightcycles to provide an estimate of the work needed to be done from the beginning since the estimate you gave me was from the beginning. I am providing this estimate to you here. As I stated before, Stuart is an award winning Ducati builder and mechanic whose reputation is excellent. I went from memory and provided a long list and put it in a word document. After you sent me your itemized invoice via fax, I passed that along as well in case I had forgotten anything that needed to be done so that he would not be leaving anything out. Stuart told me (and I’m sure would relay to you if you asked) that he tried to shoot a little on the high side because he has only seen pictures and does not have the bike in front of him, but feels confident in this estimate. He charges a labor rate of 10 dollars per hour more than your shop, and 20 dollars more per hour for parts that he purchased through his shop.
Please call me once you have had a chance to look this over. Since you are threatening to place a lien on my bike in the near future despite having provided me with the bill two days ago (a bike which I have not been told has been finished yet) I would ask that you please make this a priority and contact me back as soon as possible.
Thank you
Tom Paradis
ATO- I dont actually HAVE a lawyer. I have consulted with one quickly, called two more and given their secretaries the details, and not heard back.
I really think you oughta try back before talking with the guy again, cover your bases. Take detailed notes of any conversations you with him as well.
Note the following:
Date
Time
Reason for call
Details of call
Length of phone call
You can use all of these documents, written by your own damn self as leverage during arguments. They are not 'super-duper official', like a written contract, but they go far in your favor if things are going badly.
Oh, and I'm of the opinion that a person should have a lawyer at all times, in case you do something stupid. Everybody does at some point.
What was Stu's estimate?
I'm not sure if he wants me to share the details (Stuart if you see this and its ok let me know and I will post it up) but it is just over one half of the total bill before credits, and it is at a labor rate 10 dollars higher for parts sent in and 20 dollars higher for parts bought in shop.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 09:29:59 AM
I'm not sure if he wants me to share the details (Stuart if you see this and its ok let me know and I will post it up) but it is just over one half of the total bill before credits, and it is at a labor rate 10 dollars higher for parts sent in and 20 dollars higher for parts bought in shop.
I'm ok with it with the following caveat (sp?): I have never seen the bike, and erred on the high-side a touch. The bike is in Vermont....I'm in SoCal.
Edit: fixed spelling...
Quote from: Duck-Stew on May 23, 2008, 09:35:13 AM
I'm ok with it with the following caviot caveat: I have never seen the bike, and erred on the high-side a touch. The bike is in Vermont....I'm in SoCal.
Fixed it, I think.
With this "mechanic" I would still be worrying how the bike performs. I'm not talking about lowering you lap time. I'm talking about being able to ride your bike, and not having to worrying about it handling the same all the time. Are you will to put your life in this guys hands?
Just my 2 cents
http://www.sendspace.com/file/0mh25d (http://www.sendspace.com/file/0mh25d)
Ducatiloo-
I'll spend the 200 bucks to have someone check it over real quick
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 09:29:59 AM
I'm not sure if he wants me to share the details (Stuart if you see this and its ok let me know and I will post it up) but it is just over one half of the total bill before credits, and it is at a labor rate 10 dollars higher for parts sent in and 20 dollars higher for parts bought in shop.
it doesn't really matter what stu's labor rate is. it's the number of hours that you're arguing.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 09:53:40 AM
http://www.sendspace.com/file/0mh25d (http://www.sendspace.com/file/0mh25d)
Ducatiloo-
I'll spend the 200 bucks to have someone check it over real quick
Ok cool, better to be safe.... [thumbsup]
Quote from: derby on May 23, 2008, 09:57:10 AM
it doesn't really matter what stu's labor rate is. it's the number of hours that you're arguing.
It does matter. It means Stuart's estimate is vastly lower despite charging more.
I'm not harping on what he charges, I'm saying he's quoting me 3k less with a higher rate. Honestly, I am willing to pay Stuart's rate if it gets my bike back safe. That would be 1700 and change of the 4515 bill, with me getting my old front fork, set of wheels, and brake systems back
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 10:04:10 AM
It does matter. It means Stuart's estimate is vastly lower despite charging more.
I'm not harping on what he charges, I'm saying he's quoting me 3k less with a higher rate. Honestly, I am willing to pay Stuart's rate if it gets my bike back safe. That would be 1700 and change of the 4515 bill, with me getting my old front fork, set of wheels, and brake systems back
you can compare the totals to re-enforce your point, but your main argument is that he's padding the hours on his bill.
Quote from: derby on May 23, 2008, 10:11:39 AM
you can compare the totals to re-enforce your point, but your main argument is that he's padding the hours on his bill.
Agreed, this is your winning argument.
Right- we are saying the same thing Derby.
(I grew up in a town called Derby)
They are now arguing at Stew is too far away and also would get charged different for "parts" because of that and apparently even though I emailed Leslie at BCM and never heard back, John has sent Miles a list of things that needed to be done to the bike and they are writing up an estimate.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 10:56:27 AM
They are now arguing at Stew is too far away and also would get charged different for "parts" because of that and apparently even though I emailed Leslie at BCM and never heard back, John has sent Miles a list of things that needed to be done to the bike and they are writing up an estimate.
like i said, hours... does time move differently in vermont than it does in socal?
Quote from: cyrus buelton on May 23, 2008, 08:45:40 AM
Not true.
Once again, that depends on state law if verbal contracts are binding.
I didn't say they were not binding. I said it was an error.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 10:56:27 AM
They are now arguing at Stew is too far away and also would get charged different for "parts" because of that and apparently even though I emailed Leslie at BCM and never heard back, John has sent Miles a list of things that needed to be done to the bike and they are writing up an estimate.
Why oh why are you continuing on this track with the guy? You have been told about 50 time's in the thread that it's lawyer time. All your doing by getting an estimate from this guy and an estimate from that guy, is giving the guy different things to lie to you about.
Your issue is thus (if we are getting the whole story): You contracted to build a bike. You were given an estimate for a certain $$ amount and schedule. The builder did not keep the schedule and is also trying to bill you double or triple the estimate.
Stop work now! Get bike back now! Deal with each other in court later.
Oh, and if you specifically told the guy to use a specific thing, and uses something different without consulting you first, you are not bound to pay full price, since you were specific. If you said "purple marmalade paint or equal it would be a different story. Simple lecture in Contracts class there for you. The lawyer will help with all these finer points. [thumbsup]
Grab a couple friends and a few shotguns. Go get your bike back.
Odds are he doesn't have the money to sue you and he has no contract anyway.
Pay him for the 8 hours or whatever it was and move on.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on May 23, 2008, 12:29:38 PM
Grab a couple friends and a few shotguns. Go get your bike back.
Odds are he doesn't have the money to sue you and he has no contract anyway.
Pay him for the 8 hours or whatever it was and move on.
This route minus the shotguns.
Bring howitzers instead.
I just want to say that Para did consult (rather informally) a lawyer who advised NOT to formally obtain a lawyer and that small claims court is the best way to go (the ultimate DIY'er)
Para- you're doing what you need to do. Don't mind these guys, they seem to be in it for the drama [laugh]. Just know that this WILL take time, which sucks, but when sh!t happens like this, it takes time for it to work out. At this point, figure out what you want out of all this... minimum... and don't quit until you get it. Keep up the hard work and hope it will be worth it. Even if it turns out to be more pain than gain, then you've learned your lesson, and we all thank you for sharing said lesson.
GOOD LUCK, my man! We're all here to support you.
I seem to be very touchy-feely today.
Kumbaya, my Lord... Kumbaya Kumbaya, my Lord... Kumbaya Kumbaya, my Lord... Kumbaya Kumbaya, my Lord... Kumbaya Kumbaya, my Lord... Kumbaya!
[laugh]
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 10:56:27 AM
They are now arguing at Stew is too far away and also would get charged different for "parts" because of that and apparently even though I emailed Leslie at BCM and never heard back, John has sent Miles a list of things that needed to be done to the bike and they are writing up an estimate.
You are not questioning the parts as much as him padding the labor. labor does not differ between time zones. His answer is BS.
Even though his parts seem padded as well, the main cost is labor.
Quote from: hbliam on May 23, 2008, 01:24:43 PM
This route minus the shotguns.
Shotguns were thrown in there just to get the point across.
Get a group of 5-6 friends, big bruisers perhaps.
Go in there, load up your bike and make the beast with two backsing leave.
What is he going to do?
He is obviously overcharging you because he needs the money, so odds are he can't afford an attorney.
Now the big x factor is the dude probably knows where you live and also that you don't have a garage for your bike. That could be a problem. However, if he tries to come get it back = theft
Quote from: cyrus buelton on May 23, 2008, 02:39:01 PM
Shotguns were thrown in there just to get the point across.
Get a group of 5-6 friends, big bruisers perhaps.
Go in there, load up your bike and make the beast with two backsing leave.
What is he going to do?
He is obviously overcharging you because he needs the money, so odds are he can't afford an attorney.
Now the big x factor is the dude probably knows where you live and also that you don't have a garage for your bike. That could be a problem. However, if he tries to come get it back = theft
...leave him a check for the 8 or 10 hours you think you rightfully owe him with "paid in full" in the memo field.
Quote from: derby on May 23, 2008, 02:46:56 PM
...leave him a check for the 8 or 10 hours you think you rightfully owe him with "paid in full" in the memo field.
Memo field is not binding. Write "payment in full" on the back where he will endorse it. Then f he endorses the check and deposits it, then it's supposedly binding.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 23, 2008, 10:56:27 AM
They are now arguing at Stew is too far away and also would get charged different for "parts" because of that and apparently even though I emailed Leslie at BCM and never heard back, John has sent Miles a list of things that needed to be done to the bike and they are writing up an estimate.
Explain how this matters. It takes the same amount of time for a competent mechanic to perform an oil change (or whatever) regardless where he lives. Also, I live in Alaska and buy my bike parts all over the world - and STILL save money over buying locally, even after paying shipping.
why all this trouble for a 695? i don't understand it. sometimes its just better to be on team BSR. and forget about all of the trouble and ride. [bang]
the" i feel for you man" ron [evil]
Just to put the cost in some sort of perspective.....
I'd be happy to sell you my S4R for 7K. SSS, better suspension......etc etc.... :P
WoW, has this gone on tooo long, or what :P
Discussion & civility have long since died....
Get your bike back.
Go from there.
Reading this thread makes me feel like I am reading about an abused wife who keeps going back to her husband instead of the battered women's shelter. ???
PLease get your bike back so we can stop this insanity!!! I really want to see some pics of your bike in YOUR deiveway. Finished or make the beast with two backsing not (pardon my french). But this really chaps my ass.
Heath
I'm rooting for the mechanic, it's obvious that paradisecity has mental problems.
Quote from: bigtime on May 24, 2008, 06:32:13 AM
I'm rooting for the mechanic, it's obvious that paradisecity has mental problems.
Cruel, man, cruel.
Look, some people are just too nice. There is nothing you can do to change that.
Some folks are a-holes, and some are creampuffs. A-holes get screamed at, creampuffs get walked on.
IMO - P-city is a creampuff.
One day, his balls may drop. until then, all of your screaming at him is not going to do anything but waste your time and his.
<mod hat>
Not cool, guys. If you can't find a way to be civil about this, don't post.
</mod hat>
My official response:
I just spent 30 minutes talking w/the shop that ParadiseCity took his 695 to and here's what I think:
The errors here can be split just-about equally between these two areas:
1) The shops' unfamiliar billing system and the shops' unfamiliarity with Ducati Monsters
*AND*
2) ParadiseCity's lack of concept of how much time some of the custom things he's requested actually take.
I am not taking anyone's side in this matter, I'm a 3rd party observer providing my opinion of the situation and an estimate of what work was presented to me (there were items worked on that ParadiseCity failed to mention to me). I believe the shop will adjust the bill more favorably to ParadiseCity, but I also think that there is some misconceptions on ParadiseCity's part as to the time needed to perform some tasks.
I won't be weighing in on this situation anymore.
[gets off witness stand]
--Stu
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on May 24, 2008, 10:39:45 AM
<mod hat>
Not cool, guys. If you can't find a way to be civil about this, don't post.
</mod hat>
Listen, I apologize if I stepped over the line.
My point is that P-city is being entirely TOO civil about this. My comment was an attempt to get him to
WAKE UP!!His ultracivility and creampuffery could get him killed by leading him to accept a bike that may be unsafe.
When it comes to things like this, you have to be firm in order to ensure(as much as possible) your safety.
Personally, I wish him luck, and hope he ends up with a safe bike at a reasonable cost.
Guys- lets get one thing straight.
I'm not a creampuff. I'm calculating. I'm waiting until I have enough information to make the proper decision that saves me money and doesn't put me in a bad legal situation. I have only spoken to one lawyer for a few minutes and am waiting for two others who specialize in this to call me back. I dont want to make a payment and take the bike back because that might mean I am admitting to the bill. I dont know. I also know that if I show up with 5 people and try to take my bike 1) it could get messy and 2) it could leave me in a very poor legal situation later. I am not going to harm my position in this situation any further until I have the proper information as to the options for a course of action.
P-city, I'm not suggesting you strongarm the guy, and I know that this thread has only been up for a few days, and there's only so much time in a day.
That said, I have 2 observations, then I'll quit.
1) You're all worried about the legal situation, I'd be just as worried about the level of craftsmanship performed on the bike,or lack of it, and how that relates to the safety of the rider.
2) Waitng for lawyers to call you back is like waiting for the second coming. Lots of people do it, and no ones heard from anybody yet.
Good luck, man.
Quote from: Bun-bun on May 24, 2008, 11:39:06 AM
2) Waitng for lawyers to call you back is like waiting for the second coming. Lots of people do it, and no ones heard from anybody yet.
THIS is the funniest shit i've heard all day. [thumbsup]
http://wserver0.prepaidlegal.com/newCorp2/legal_plans/legal_plans.html
Quote from: hbliam on May 24, 2008, 11:06:00 PM
http://wserver0.prepaidlegal.com/newCorp2/legal_plans/legal_plans.html
sounds kinda shady. Pay before hand, and your'e not even guaranteed quality service in the future? Actually, kinda sounds like the situation here!
Quote from: deweey on May 25, 2008, 12:08:40 AM
sounds kinda shady. Pay before hand, and your'e not even guaranteed quality service in the future? Actually, kinda sounds like the situation here!
It was kind of a joke.
That being said, it's not shady, they have been around for decades.
Quote from: hbliam on May 25, 2008, 12:24:02 AM
It was kind of a joke.
That being said, it's not shady, they have been around for decades.
So has ScamWay. I mean AmWay.
Quote from: hbliam on May 24, 2008, 11:06:00 PM
http://wserver0.prepaidlegal.com/newCorp2/legal_plans/legal_plans.html
Not shady at all. I've had a plan with them for 7 years now. I run my own business, and it's nice not to have to worry about paying for a lawyer if one of your customers refuses to pay, or threatens to sue. I can just tell them "go ahead, I've got prepaid legal, won't cost me a dime!"
Shuts 'em right up.
Also helps when one of my workers gets busted(which happens WAAAY more than I'd like.). [leo]
Quote from: Bun-bun on May 25, 2008, 06:35:18 PM
Not shady at all. I've had a plan with them for 7 years now. I run my own business, and it's nice not to have to worry about paying for a lawyer if one of your customers refuses to pay, or threatens to sue. I can just tell them "go ahead, I've got prepaid legal, won't cost me a dime!"
Shuts 'em right up.
Also helps when one of my workers gets busted(which happens WAAAY more than I'd like.). [leo]
O/T
I've thought about something like this.
Bun-bun
Have you actually used them?
If so, how was the service?
The services are legit as are the products from AmWay. But, you are investing in a multi level marketing scam / business.
I still think you should strongarm the guy........
Quote from: cyrus buelton on May 26, 2008, 02:07:16 PM
I still think you should strongarm the guy........
I know a guy who is cheaper than an attorney and makes his living talking to people and convincing them of the error of their ways. He also does "collections".
Quote from: Rogue Duc on May 25, 2008, 07:19:57 PM
O/T
I've thought about something like this.
Bun-bun
Have you actually used them?
If so, how was the service?
Rogue,
Yeah, I have used them about 5-6 times. Only once for a lawsuit against me, and that was a slamdunk anyway, but I've sued two different deadbeats, and I've had them defend two employees for doing something really stupid.
It's basically the same thing as having a lawyer on retainer, but you get a different lawyer depending on what your need might be at any particular time. One lawyer for suing deadneats, another for defending idiots who drive without a license, and try to run from the cops.
You have to do a cost/benefit analysis to decide whether the cost of the service will balance the lost income from not using their service, and just hiring a lawyer when you need one.
The one time the service was priceless was when I was out of town, my wife went to the beach and had a bad reaction to something she drank, and passed out in her car. The cops arrested her for drunk in public. One phone call, and she was out of jail, had a lawyer to pick her up from the police station, get her to the hospital, have a blood test done, present that test at trial, and have the charges dismissed.
Yeah, it can be worth it!
Quote from: silentbob on May 26, 2008, 02:59:30 PM
I know a guy who is cheaper than an attorney and makes his living talking to people and convincing them of the error of their ways. He also does "collections".
I know a few also.
By far the cheapest and most effective method to get your bike back.
Quote from: silentbob on May 26, 2008, 02:59:30 PM
I know a guy who is cheaper than an attorney and makes his living talking to people and convincing them of the error of their ways. He also does "collections".
I know one too. We have vacationed together.
I'd like to not have to go down that route.
I'm sure I'll hear about how I'm such a pussy but its been less than a week and I am trying to get this resolved the right way first.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 26, 2008, 05:32:25 PM
I know one too. We have vacationed together.
I'd like to not have to go down that route.
I'm sure I'll hear about how I'm such a pussy but its been less than a week and I am trying to get this resolved the right way first.
I'm not trying to be macho. Just cheap.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 26, 2008, 05:32:25 PM
I know one too. We have vacationed together.
I'd like to not have to go down that route.
I'm sure I'll hear about how I'm such a pussy but its been less than a week and I am trying to get this resolved the right way first.
I agree with Bob above, not trying to be macho either, but you have put up with enough bullshit.
Rocky got his start breaking pinkies, and he's Italian.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 26, 2008, 05:32:25 PM
I know one too. We have vacationed together.
I'd like to not have to go down that route.
I'm sure I'll hear about how I'm such a pussy but its been less than a week and I am trying to get this resolved the right way first.
No, you're doing this right. You want to avoid a mechanic's lien, which he can slap on the bike even if it's not in his possession. You want him to grudgingly agree to a resolution.
back to the chain- all i have seen of it was last monday- is this a 530? (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/IMG_0551.jpg)
sorry for not much to work with...
Hard to tell from that pick, but it does look a little wide.... Could be a 525, which would be standard issue. IMO, 525 is too wide from the factory on any 2v Monster, they should come issued with 520's. Sticking with 525's is easier though, since they just use that on all the bikes. A bit of a victim of a growing-larger company is standardization of parts.
There really is no justification of using a 530 though, unless you are running some seriously high power. One of the misconceptions is that the larger chains will 'last longer' - False. The larger chain is slightly stronger, sure, but that does not equal a longer life, since it can fall victim to neglect (rust) and wear from the gears like anything else.
If grandmaster of picking gaudy parts for your bike (me) was in charge of the chain and sprockets, you'd be receiving a nice gold-linked 520 chain, 15t front and larger, but odd-numbered rear sprocket - with the aluminum carrier, steel teeth. Odd numbered front and rear sprockets promote more even wearing.
I did not follow my own advice when I was picking sprockets though, and got a 14t front, instead of a larger rear (doh!)
TOB had a good write-up as to why its better (perhaps only marginally) to use two odd-numbered sprockets.
For me on the M900, the golden matchup would be something near a 15-43, I believe factory issue is 15-41 or 15-39. CA-Cycleworks has this information in their parts section under drive-train parts I believe.
Quote from: paradisecity on May 27, 2008, 06:09:04 AM
back to the chain- all i have seen of it was last monday- is this a 530?
sorry for not much to work with...
if you look at the sideplates on the links, every other one should have the width (520, 525, 530) on it.
That's an o-ring chain, right?
So why the hell did he use a clip-type master link on it? ???
EDIT: Maybe he's only using it while fabbing up the bike, so he can remove it easily when he has to, um,do whatever needs to be done that needs the chain removed?
Quote from: DesmoDog on May 27, 2008, 08:10:42 AM
That's an o-ring chain, right?
So why the hell did he use a clip-type master link on it? ???
EDIT: Maybe he's only using it while fabbing up the bike, so he can remove it easily when he has to, um,do whatever needs to be done that needs the chain removed?
Im guessing that the chain is not going to be modified.
What will this affect Desmo?
Well... there are probably differing opinions on this, but I'm not a fan of those types of master links in general and to be honest I didn't even think you could buy them to (correctly) fit an o-ring chain.
And after typing that I went and surfed the net a bit, and found there are people who prefer to use that type of link with that chain... and there are "correct" clip master links for it, so... what do I know???
I still wouldn't use one on a street bike myself, but that's just me apparently...
I always use rivets and so does every Ducati shop I know.
The clip master link can be used on an o-ring chain. I use one on my vintage Honda. The clip link is fine on a moderate HP bike like my Honda (about 70 horsepower) if the clip is installed in the proper direction. The one is the pic is installed properly.
Personally I wouldn't use this type of master link on a high horsepower bike - but the 695 isn't a 1098!
Still, it's worth asking the guy why he didn't peen the pins on the master link. Doesn't he have a rivet tool!??!
And if its a 530, intended for high power output, why would you then use such a clip?
Take the guy to court. I wanna see him explain the bill on Judge Judy! You can pick apart half the bill as false charges, and she don't like no liars.
The 530 is way too much for that bike. Even the D16RR has a 525. All 2V smaller than 900cc use 520 standard. The 900, DS1000 and DS1100 use a 525 which is still too much IMO...
My slightly tweaked 900 uses a 520, and its plenty-o-chain.
I have figured out that it is a 525 chain...so still too big, but not the end of the world.
Well that's fine since it was the same as the standard issue. If you feel like replacing later, you'll just buy a 520 chain, and matching front and rear sprockets. That's all a pitch change entails.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 27, 2008, 11:02:05 AM
Well that's fine since it was the same as the standard issue. If you feel like replacing later, you'll just buy a 520 chain, and matching front and rear sprockets. That's all a pitch change entails.
No, stock for the 695 was 520...
Ah, i see. Well that's interesting, I was under the impression that all Duc's were running 525's
Quote from: NAKID on May 27, 2008, 01:31:34 PM
No, stock for the 695 was 520...
Yes, but the S2R1000 swingarm (and rear sprocket on this bike) run a 525, so it's cheaper to run a 525 front sprocket and chain then to swap out a nearly perfectly good 525 41T rear sprocket so that's what the tech did.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 27, 2008, 06:34:12 AM
If grandmaster of picking gaudy parts for your bike (me) was in charge of the chain and sprockets, you'd be receiving a nice gold-linked 520 chain, 15t front and larger, but odd-numbered rear sprocket - with the aluminum carrier, steel teeth. Odd numbered front and rear sprockets promote more even wearing.
I did not follow my own advice when I was picking sprockets though, and got a 14t front, instead of a larger rear (doh!)
TOB had a good write-up as to why its better (perhaps only marginally) to use two odd-numbered sprockets.
For me on the M900, the golden matchup would be something near a 15-43, I believe factory issue is 15-41 or 15-39. CA-Cycleworks has this information in their parts section under drive-train parts I believe.
According to the legends of my clan, it's not a matter of "odd or even" but a case of common denominators. I.E. with a 15t/45t set-up, the CS sprocket would turn 3 times every time the wheel sprocket turned, consequently, the rollers would roll against the same teeth time after time. With a combination with no common denominator, the rollers roll against every tooth before they roll against any one tooth again, thus "evening" out the wear as different sections of the chain stretch at different rates.
PC-I hope this all works out in the end. I've read the entire thread, in horror. I feel your pain, having done much the same thing with a "cost plus" agreement to build a Porsche motor many years ago. I have to say, with nothing but sympathy in my heart, that this should be stickied in a "What NEVER to do" forum. I'm doing much the same thing as you're doing, minus the SSSA, to a '99 M900. The big difference: I'm doing all the work myself. Today, for instance, I managed to get the Powerlet 12V accessory wired, in two hours. (But boy is it make the beast with two backsing NICE. ;D) Yesterday, I got the 2/1 exhaust finally mounted properly in about three. I have a feeling you're being charged for all the "head scratching" and re-doing that I look at as a "learning process"..
I have to say, I think, as a new rider, you would have reaped infinitely greater rewards, riding-wise, by spending the money on a variety of riding schools than dumping the money into your bike, but then as the owner of a soon-to-be $15K '99 M900 :-[, I can certainly understand your desire to own a monster that is uniquely yours. ;D
Best of luck, "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead".
Quote from: Duck-Stew on May 27, 2008, 05:48:14 PM
Yes, but the S2R1000 swingarm (and rear sprocket on this bike) run a 525, so it's cheaper to run a 525 front sprocket and chain then to swap out a nearly perfectly good 525 41T rear sprocket so that's what the tech did.
Oh, didn't see that. Makes sense, kinda...
I learned in my late 20s that you really shouldn't modify things. The thing that typically happens is you lose your butt on the cost, often DECREASE resale value, and end up regretting the mods later. I learned this when I sank thousands and thousands of dollars into a 383 stroker motor with aluminum heads and stuffed it into a 1/2-ton pickup (that would smoke the cr@p out of snot-nosed kids in their 5.0 Mustangs...back in the day). All I do to my bikes is maybe add slip-ons and add a couple of small dollar parts like footpegs or a windshield. I'd rather use the money that would go into mods for tires and gas. I can get a LOT of riding out of the money that I would use for new, fancy rims.
But everyone has to learn their own way, in their own time. You ever notice that there aren't many people in their 40s modifying their vehicles? It's with good reason.......they already learned their lessons.
I'm sorry to hear about your hardships with this. It is one of many stories and experiences that led me to doing all of my own work.
I recently took a non-running, $900, 1987 Ducati Paso 750 and got it back on the road.......it took two years and about $1500 on top of the original cost, but if you saw all the things I had to do to it, I bet I'd have had well over $6000 in a bike worth $2500 by the time it was all said and done if I had someone else do the work for me...
http://www.desmodemon.com/vicks_paso.html
I somewhat agree with that ideology, but I think it differs regarding what you are talking about. Modify my daily-driver 4-door Tahoe? Nothing more than tinting the windows...maybe (I haven't even done that and have had the beast for a few years).
But the bike is a hobby, something to tinker with. Dollars spent on suspension and brakes are well worth it. Engine go-fast parts? Asking for reliability problems most of the time.
Fancy blinkers/Mirrors/etc? If you've got the extra jingle, why not?
And for guys in their 40's, how old do you think most guys are that throw money and chrome at their Harley's? The guys who can afford it, that's who. (And they are 40+).
Quote from: ato memphis on May 28, 2008, 06:10:28 AM
But the bike is a hobby, something to tinker with. Dollars spent on suspension and brakes are well worth it. Engine go-fast parts? Asking for reliability problems most of the time.
Yes, some are 'worth it", depending on what the application, but....solely going on resale value, MOST people don't care about those things. Unless a person is specifically looking for those mods, they add no value. For a lot of people (like me), if you've ever had an engine cracked open, I walk right past it. I don't trust the work of anyone. I've seen too many people who "thought" they knew which end of a screwdriver to hold have an dngine/tranny completely destroyed in a matter of a few miles.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 28, 2008, 06:10:28 AMFancy blinkers/Mirrors/etc? If you've got the extra jingle, why not?
On bikes with full-fairing, especially the expensive Ducati plastics, most people do not want holes drilled into them to slap tacky flush-mount turn signals on that everyone and their brother has.......often, these types of mods add no value to the bike for resale, so you may as well throw your money in the trash......with those factory parts you chunked in there.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 28, 2008, 06:10:28 AMAnd for guys in their 40's, how old do you think most guys are that throw money and chrome at their Harley's? The guys who can afford it, that's who. (And they are 40+).
The Harley crowd, or cruisers in general, is a weird one. For folks who claim "individuality", they all seem to fall into the same mold fairly well. No matter what they do to their bikes, though, I guarantee that they are losing money....and LOTS of it. Personally, for the $4000+ in mods I did to my HD when I was in my 20s, at no given time did any of those mods increase the value of my bike by more than 10% of my investment. These older Harley guys are just stuck with a little kid mentality, going with the flow of peer pressure......"if so-and-so stuck a 120-inch engine in his bike, I will too....I wanna be cool like him."
I don't think those guys with 2000 miles on a ten year old bike are the ones to be admiring for their bikes. They just don't "get it". They are the type that have no real idea of what owning a bike is really about. They'd rather go to parking-lot to parking-lot or bar-to-bar and see who they can impress. They are just looking to have their egos stroked by other adolescent-minded, bar-hopping buddies.
Personally, instead of hanging out with those guys with the $3000 paint-jobs and more chrome than a single can of wax can coat, I like the guys with bikes that look like this....
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d32/Kramer_Krazy/dirty_HD.jpg)
Low mileage bikes have never impressed me.....nor the guys I hang out with.
I suppose a personal experience is the counter example of that for me. My pops has the lazyboy-recliner HD, and has modified it. Not with appearance mods, but with functionality mods, much like I have done with my Monster.
I put clipons on because I wanted a more aggressive riding position.
He put a seat extender on for the passenger on his because my mom's had knee surgery and couldn't been one in as much as before.
His engine shroud for heat was because he commutes on his regularly in hot weather, and was tired of arriving to work with a red ass/legs. I asked "why not get a commuter-friendly bike?" and his response was simple "because this is my bike, and i'm going to use it for everything.
touche.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 28, 2008, 09:23:11 AM
I suppose a personal experience is the counter example of that for me. My pops has the lazyboy-recliner HD, .....
But going back to the point of my original post........Generally, modifications add no (resale) value to the vehicle, especially in relation to the amount invested. Do whatever you want, just remind yourself that every dollar you are sinking into the vehicle will probably just wind up down the drain. In the case of all the money I sank into my Harley (and truck and Corvette) when I was younger, I'd have been better off buying another bike. Which is my theory now. Instead of sinking $4000+ in mods on a bike, I'm buying another bike. [laugh]
Rule #1: Never sell a Ducati.
Any update Paradise?
Quote from: NAKID on May 28, 2008, 10:37:23 AM
Any update Paradise?
Yes. I met with them yesterday and we hashed out a bill that is somewhere between the initial promise and the given bill, leaning in my favor. While I certainly would have like to have paid less, the amount paid will be faaaaaar less than the initial 5 thousand and the 4.5K quoted on the invoice. They are now taking the parts for labor at a small discount to them, and final payment shall be given upon the guaranteed (in writing and supposedly coming soon) delivery date of the bike at the absolute latest of June 7th. There shall also be a one month warranty for the work being done, so on the swingarm, external engine components, exhaust, and everything else that was done specifically by him (not the fork internals).
The conversation was very civil with no mention of lawyers, hitmen, or arson. I probably could have done a little better in negotiation, and perhaps done better if I had taken a strongarm approach that was suggested by many (and seen my bike who knows when), but to be fair there WAS more work to be done than was initially quoted, and they came to the table conceding many points without mention from me after speaking with Stuart.
I am (and I believe the mechanic is) taking this as an expensive learning experience and am coming out better educated.
My main concern now is not financial, but to get the bike back as soon as possible, working well and dialed in. Also as I said before, the chain is a 525, but the front sprocket is a 15t and the rear is either 43 or 44 (can't remember what we decided on). I went up in the back because I had read on the previous board that it was the better method for that mod. Now I'm kind of lost as to what chain and sprocket would be optimal.
You done OK with chain and sprocket.
Ride the shit out of it that first month so there are no questions regarding if it will hold up.
Good luck with it, hopefully you'll get it back quickly in good working order. I wouldn't worry too much over the chain, I don't think the extra mass of a 525 compared to a 520 is going to really make much difference in the ridability & enjoyment of the bike. At least it doesn't have a 630 ( <-- not a typo) like my GS1150 had. I left my front sprocket alone & added 2 teeth to the rear and am very happy with the results ~
JM
Chain and sprockets need to be changed out later on anyways, if you don't like the gearing change it down the road when they wear out.
Good to know on the chain and sprockets being ok.
Good job! You got the shop to agree to a fair resolution and there will be no litigation expense and hassle and no mechanic's lien. Buy yourself a beer and enjoy it! [drink]
Quote from: 5891jonathan on May 28, 2008, 02:50:56 PM
Good job! You got the shop to agree to a fair resolution and there will be no litigation expense and hassle and no mechanic's lien. Buy yourself a beer and enjoy it! [drink]
[drink]
Excellent job keeping your cool by the way.
Can't wait to see it!
[thumbsup]
So, when is the "in writing" due date for the bike?
Quote from: Travman on May 28, 2008, 05:05:47 PM
Seems worth it to me. I would pay thousands and thousands of dollars to smoke the cr@p our of kids in the 5.0 Mustangs.
Why spend that much? Just get yourself a good pair of running sneakers and......
Paradisecity, if you and the mechanic are equally unhappy you did a good job of negotiating. Do check the bike out carefully, including test ride before final payment
Congrats on the civil resolution! [beer]
+1 on a long, thorough test ride before final payment.
Also, ask him to go over the bike with you. With this much custom work, it will help for you to know how it's set up, what certain bolts are torqued at etc.
Quote from: Count Desmo on May 28, 2008, 07:43:07 PM
Congrats on the civil resolution! [beer]
It's not resolved until the bike is in his possession and the bill is considered paid in full. :)
Hope it works out for you.
Quote from: the_Journeyman on May 28, 2008, 12:05:10 PM
I wouldn't worry too much over the chain, I don't think the extra mass of a 525 compared to a 520 is going to really make much difference in the ridability & enjoyment of the bike.
You won't have a problem going from a 520 to a 525. I did this with my 748, mainly for chain and sprocket life. Generally, you will get more miles on a 525 system than you will with a 520. When the Monster needs a new chain and sprockets, I'll probably bump that up to a 525, also.
Quote from: someguy on May 28, 2008, 05:20:48 PM
Why spend that much? Just get yourself a good pair of running sneakers and......
It was hilarious seeing the look on their faces when a stock looking pickup smoked them. It was even funnier when I'd raise the hood and they couldn't figure out how I did it......I had painted the aluminum heads and aluminum intake to match the block (giving the impression that they were stock iron), I ran a stock air cleaner with the whole rear cut out (but not visable), and most of the vacuum lines were there (but blocked). I even had the a/c unit on the thing, but the belt was removed. Running a tricked out tranny and 3.73:1 rear gear helped, also. The truck would hit second gear and the rear end would kick over about 2-3 feet as it went sideways. I'd break the tires loose at 95 when it hit third. When they'd ask me what the engine was, I'd say "Oh, just a stock 350"...and they usually believed me. [laugh]
This is a reply to the original post. From the looks of it they guy is not pulling your leg and the problems that he is having sound to be par for the type of mods. He missed the deadline though. That is the only real issue that I see. I always include a back-charge clause in my contracts.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 28, 2008, 12:02:00 PM
You done OK with chain and sprocket.
Ride the shit out of it that first month so there are no questions regarding if it will hold up.
+1,000,000,000
This has been an interesting story. [popcorn] I can see where both sides have learned a thing or two about the pitfalls of doing custom work. I don't see either party as being a winner on this one but it sounds like everyone will at least be able to walk away without a brawl erupting.
I'll be marking June 7 on my calendar and hoping for a happy ending to this whole mess.
A most amazing tale of whoa...one can only hope this comes to a pretty " sunset." Such perserverance should not go unrewarded.
a compromise that doesn't make you hate the bike is the best one you could have come to.
A week from now we all expect a bunch of pictures of it NOT in a garage.
Number in excess of 20. (Pictures in various locales).
Try to put 150 miles (a tank of gas) each day of the weekend minimum when you first pick it up, so you can really start to 'figure' it out. I'd recommend routes that have a variety of turns: fast/bumpy, slow/bumpy, abrupt, fast/smooth, slow/smooth, and this will give you a pretttttty good idea of what's in store for you - ownership-wise - and if there are any suspension/geometry issues.
I'll be traveling approximately 150 miles the very next day for a soccer game.
Weekdays will be very difficult to get more than 20 miles a day on average but I will do what I can.
Take the long way home. I've done this before, it was only 10mi to work, so 20 mi round trip, but on the way home, I could usually add an extra 20 mi without much trouble. That makes 40 mi total per day.
I might just try to work in the app gap a couple times a week. Its about a half hour from work if i beat the rush traffic
Quote from: MikeZ on May 29, 2008, 06:01:22 PM
+1,000,000,000
-1,000,000,001
this is this guys first bike iirc. I would have it looked over real well. and contract someone to ride it like hell for the first month. I will volunteer my services. ;)
Quote from: Tim on May 30, 2008, 12:35:15 PM
Sorry, but I don't buy your argument. I've been buying and selling and modifying and restoring motorcycles for 30 years and cars for 34 years. I have lots and lots of mods in my current bikes (an S4Rs and a Harley Street Glide) because I've reached the point in my riding career where my prreferences are strong enough that I am not going to be happy with *any* stock bike. And I *ride* the value out of my mods, I don't look to sell them to someone else to get my money back, any more than I do the original price of the vehicle. My Harley is two years old and has over 22,000 miles on it; my Ducati is also two years old and has just under 6,000 miles on it. I have a lot more than $4,000 in mods to each of them, but every time I roll on the gas on Harley, the additional 35 hp and 40 ft-lbs of torque make me smile, every time I hit the binders, the full floating Brembos (yes, full floating Brembos on a Harley full dress bagger) give me the stopping security I crave; every time I take it through the twisties as fast as some riders take their sportbikes through the same curves, I am happy I spent the money on massive suspension upgrades. Every time I ride the Ducati with the BST CF wheels and the full Termi system, I get a sensation that simply would not have been there without those mods. The bikes make he happier than they would stock, the mods were expensive but so were the bikes when they were stock, the bikes depreciate, the mods depreciate, and I ride the hell out of them and the deprecation is PAID FOR by gobs of fun that just don't stop.
Not to mention that I simply LIKE my bikes better than I did when they were stock, and I like LOOKING at the bikes more than I did when they were stock.
Heck, the payback comes from riding, owning, and looking at motorcycles that are specifically tailored to my needs in ways that stock motorcycles simply never will be.
Now, about that supercharger for my Chevy Silverado pickup truck......
You didn't buy his argument....or address it. You said your mods add value to you. That's fine. If you were to go sell your bikes, you most likely would not get an appreciable amount for them over a the same year/similar mileage stock bike.
He was also making the point that sinking serious coin into an entry level bike is just going to get you to the level the higher end models are at. It'd be quicker, easier, and most likely cheaper to just go buy the higher end bike....
But the mods give a value to the person that is not monetary. Plus it's like a stock, no matter what the value is you can never lose money until you sell it.
First Rule You never sell your Ducati
Second Rule You never talk about selling your Ducati
Third Rule See first rule.
The only problem comes in when you crash it, and you need the value for a rebuild. Insurance companies don't get this, I'm insuring this bike, with the reflectors removed, the aftermarket exhaust and the fancy tank paint job. when i crash, and you give me money, you need to give me enough that i can get the same thing i had.
that is not how it works, which is a shame.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 30, 2008, 01:11:49 PM
The only problem comes in when you crash it, and you need the value for a rebuild. Insurance companies don't get this, I'm insuring this bike, with the reflectors removed, the aftermarket exhaust and the fancy tank paint job. when i crash, and you give me money, you need to give me enough that i can get the same thing i had.
that is not how it works, which is a shame.
That's where my Stock selling analogy comes into play ;)
Quote from: Ducatiloo on May 30, 2008, 01:16:20 PM
That's where my Stock selling analogy comes into play ;)
Er...I don't see how your analogy comes into play with insurance at all....
Also, I probably *do* want to sell my ducati......
heresy.
i take a little more pride in ownership of my Ducati. Its unique, looks good, and the guy next door doesn't have one. The jap bikes are just bikes. To me, even an ST or a Multi is just a bike. But 9*6/998/748 or Monster really isn't for selling. Its for enjoying for the long haul. But a lot of people out there routinely change up their rides.
Quote from: ato memphis on May 30, 2008, 02:08:27 PM
i take a little more pride in ownership of my Ducati. Its unique, looks good, and the guy next door doesn't have one. The jap bikes are just bikes. To me, even an ST or a Multi is just a bike. But 9*6/998/748 or Monster really isn't for selling. Its for enjoying for the long haul. But a lot of people out there routinely change up their rides.
Try living in SF. You can't walk in hour in the city without seeing half a dozen.
Maybe 10 in all of Memphis.
2 in Waterloo one is Mine.
A Ducati is like a vintage wine to be cherished and collected
Land of the rising sun bikes are for selling [evil]
Quote from: Tim on May 30, 2008, 12:35:15 PM
Sorry, but I don't buy your argument. I've been buying and selling and modifying and restoring motorcycles for 30 years and cars for 34 years. I have lots and lots of mods in my current bikes (an S4Rs and a Harley Street Glide) because I've reached the point in my riding career where my prreferences are strong enough that I am not going to be happy with *any* stock bike. And I *ride* the value out of my mods, I don't look to sell them to someone else to get my money back, any more than I do the original price of the vehicle. My Harley is two years old and has over 22,000 miles on it; my Ducati is also two years old and has just under 6,000 miles on it. I have a lot more than $4,000 in mods to each of them, but every time I roll on the gas on Harley, the additional 35 hp and 40 ft-lbs of torque make me smile, every time I hit the binders, the full floating Brembos (yes, full floating Brembos on a Harley full dress bagger) give me the stopping security I crave; every time I take it through the twisties as fast as some riders take their sportbikes through the same curves, I am happy I spent the money on massive suspension upgrades. Every time I ride the Ducati with the BST CF wheels and the full Termi system, I get a sensation that simply would not have been there without those mods. The bikes make he happier than they would stock, the mods were expensive but so were the bikes when they were stock, the bikes depreciate, the mods depreciate, and I ride the hell out of them and the deprecation is PAID FOR by gobs of fun that just don't stop.
Not to mention that I simply LIKE my bikes better than I did when they were stock, and I like LOOKING at the bikes more than I did when they were stock.
Heck, the payback comes from riding, owning, and looking at motorcycles that are specifically tailored to my needs in ways that stock motorcycles simply never will be.
Now, about that supercharger for my Chevy Silverado pickup truck......
Right on Brother !
Quote from: paradisecity on May 28, 2008, 11:51:29 AM
Yes. I met with them yesterday and we hashed out a bill that is somewhere between the initial promise and the given bill, leaning in my favor. While I certainly would have like to have paid less, the amount paid will be faaaaaar less than the initial 5 thousand and the 4.5K quoted on the invoice. They are now taking the parts for labor at a small discount to them, and final payment shall be given upon the guaranteed (in writing and supposedly coming soon) delivery date of the bike at the absolute latest of June 7th. There shall also be a one month warranty for the work being done, so on the swingarm, external engine components, exhaust, and everything else that was done specifically by him (not the fork internals).
My original question of why the differing hourly rates, some $55 and some $65 is moot now, but I thought that was weird. Something I would have negotiated into the deal, given his consistent missing of deadlines, would have been a daily monetary penalty for every day he misses past the June 7th date.
Hrmm. I looked back at this thread and saw TWO pages that are new, and I'm thinking "Cool, paradisecity must have got his bike and there's now two pages of pictures!" Boy was I wrong. :o
Someone tell me when there's more to this drama.... [coffee]
Quote from: ato memphis on May 30, 2008, 02:08:27 PM
To me, even an ST or a Multi is just a bike. But 9*6/998/748 or Monster really isn't for selling.
Continued threadjacking....
Interestingly, I bought my ST2 because it was a heck of a deal. I didn't want an ST and I surely didn't like the color, but I bought the new one at a price that was less than what used ones were going for. I figured I could ride it a couple of years and resell it at no loss........until I found out I REALLY like the bike. Of all the motorcycles I have, the ST will probably be the last one I ever sell. It does everything really well. I can drag a knee in the twisties and do a SaddleSore 1000 without any modifications.
Quote from: Tim on May 31, 2008, 04:29:57 PM
I pointed out that I am older, have been modifying bikes for a very long time, and continue to do so because it is worth it to me. I didn't buy his argument that modifying a bike doesn't have value (it's simply not true in my case), and I pointed out that the value - for some people, for other people besides him, for me - comes in the use of the bike, not from dollars not spent or dollars recouped at resale.
I never said that modifications didn't have personal satisfaction value. I said that they had nearly no resale value advantages (that's in dollars, not smiles).
I completely agree with you that modifications can bring a tear of joy in your riding experience, but that is just about the only value that they add. I know for a fact that installing Helibar adaptors and clip-ons onto my ST2 to LOWER the bars makes riding it more enjoyable in the twisties, but I firmly expect their resale value to be about zilch, and in some cases will chase off potential buyers because of this mod being an indication of a hard life.....and all the scrapes on hard parts. Because of this, I have retained the stock bars....just in case I ever do want to sell it.
Now, if you want to talk about all the mods I did to my Harley, yeah, they were great the first few years I had the bike, and as I got into sportbikes and my riding style changed on the HD to more of a cruising and commuting vehicle, I regret sinking all that money into the bike. I know that if I was to every sell the bike (which I will not), those ported and polished heads and the other work I did probably will not add a single penny to it....and will also potentially chase off potential buyers. Once the HD rolled about 70k or so, I really started to regret the mods. Now, after rolling 100k and still having a virgin tranny and bottom end, I baby the bike even more. I even regeared it to get better gas mileage for my commute (50-55 mpg through every tank for the last year and a half). All those go-fast mods don't do a thing for me, now.........but they sure were fun when the bike still had low miles and I wasn't afraid to break things.
I've heard nothing but good stuff about ST's as well, just like Goldwings are CBR's on 'roids. That being said, the look does nothing to my naughty bits. If I had an MH900e, You would never hear from me, because my garage does not get good wireless signal. I would just sit down there and stare all day.
Quote from: ato memphis on June 03, 2008, 06:20:00 AM
I've heard nothing but good stuff about ST's as well, just like Goldwings are CBR's on 'roids. That being said, the look does nothing to my naughty bits.
I've put over 35k miles on mine and like it so much that I picked up another one for the wife less than two weeks ago. I'm selling all the touring mods the previous owner installed and knocking the total price paid down to a ridiculously low amount. It was cool that he gave me the OEM seat and windshield. That means I can sell the Corbin and taller windshield without having to shell out any money for replacements.
Quote from: Desmo Demon on June 03, 2008, 06:09:21 AM
Now, if you want to talk about all the mods I did to my Harley, yeah, they were great the first few years I had the bike, and as I got into sportbikes and my riding style changed on the HD to more of a cruising and commuting vehicle, I regret sinking all that money into the bike. I know that if I was to every sell the bike (which I will not), those ported and polished heads and the other work I did probably will not add a single penny to it....and will also potentially chase off potential buyers.
I guess you are not the typical Harley owner. Most think that they can recoup the initial purchase price, the full price of the mods, the gas they burned, the insurance they paid, the sales tax they paid, and a healthy profit.
I sold my turbo charged Harley for about half what I had into it after 5 years. There were plenty of people (dealers included) who told me the bike was worth over $30K but not one of them would actually give me money.
Quote from: Desmo Demon on June 03, 2008, 06:34:10 AM
That means I can sell the Corbin and taller windshield without having to shell out any money for replacements.
Which Corbin seat is it? They make 3 or 4 different ones for the ST.
So tomorrow is June 7th.
Where's the bike?
Quote from: paradisecity on May 28, 2008, 11:51:29 AM
Yes. I met with them yesterday and we hashed out a bill that is somewhere between the initial promise and the given bill, leaning in my favor. While I certainly would have like to have paid less, the amount paid will be faaaaaar less than the initial 5 thousand and the 4.5K quoted on the invoice. They are now taking the parts for labor at a small discount to them, and final payment shall be given upon the guaranteed (in writing and supposedly coming soon) delivery date of the bike at the absolute latest of June 7th. There shall also be a one month warranty for the work being done, so on the swingarm, external engine components, exhaust, and everything else that was done specifically by him (not the fork internals).
The conversation was very civil with no mention of lawyers, hitmen, or arson. I probably could have done a little better in negotiation, and perhaps done better if I had taken a strongarm approach that was suggested by many (and seen my bike who knows when), but to be fair there WAS more work to be done than was initially quoted, and they came to the table conceding many points without mention from me after speaking with Stuart.
I am (and I believe the mechanic is) taking this as an expensive learning experience and am coming out better educated.
My main concern now is not financial, but to get the bike back as soon as possible, working well and dialed in. Also as I said before, the chain is a 525, but the front sprocket is a 15t and the rear is either 43 or 44 (can't remember what we decided on). I went up in the back because I had read on the previous board that it was the better method for that mod. Now I'm kind of lost as to what chain and sprocket would be optimal.
yea, enough with the thread jacks, get a room haha. you better be at his door at 12:01 asking for your bike lol.
I'm not criticizing paradisecity at all with this - I just want the man to get his bike back at a reasonable price. If there was any way I could help, I'd be doing it. Good luck man.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm47/roy-nexus-6/Courtesy_DMF.jpg)
Quote from: roy-nexus-6 on June 06, 2008, 07:41:16 PM
I'm not criticizing paradisecity at all with this - I just want the man to get his bike back at a reasonable price. If there was any way I could help, I'd be doing it. Good luck man.
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm47/roy-nexus-6/Courtesy_DMF.jpg)
Baaahahahahahah that's right...
To quote one of my fav movies:
What now? Let me tell you what now. I'm gonna call a couple of hard, pipe-hitting brodas to go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you! By a damn sight. I'm gonna get medieval on yo' ass!
Does he look like a pregnant dog?
;D ;D ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNlePuVM3Ic
(Turn your volume all the way up)
Today is June 7th, follow up please. [thumbsup]
I hope today is a good day for ya. :)
Quote from: printman on June 07, 2008, 04:35:08 AM
Today is June 7th, follow up please. [thumbsup]
I hope today is a good day for ya. :)
+1! [moto]
I'm riding.
I know that someone will say that "this thread is worthless without pics" so i took a quick one from my driveway that doesnt do it total justice. I went riding this morning and am hungover, but shall share more, cooler pics later as well as ride thoughts sometime in the near future. I might do it in a new thread so that this one can die in peace.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/IMG_0561.jpg)
Quote from: paradisecity on June 07, 2008, 09:08:26 AM
I'm riding.
I know that someone will say that "this thread is worthless without pics" so i took a quick one from my driveway that doesnt do it total justice. I went riding this morning and am hungover, but shall share more, cooler pics later as well as ride thoughts sometime in the near future. I might do it in a new thread so that this one can die in peace.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/IMG_0561.jpg)
It's official dude, that is one baaad mothermake the beast with two backsing bike!
Congrats on getting your bike back! Now it's time for more pics!
Lookin' goood [beer]
Quotemight do it in a new thread so that this one can die in peace.
I would understand why ;D
That is truly a great looking bike. [thumbsup]
Man, this thread has been something else. I have kept my thoughts to myself because you had enough going on and I didn't want to add to the clutter, but I have been glued to this topic. It was kind of like seeing another guy getting kicked in the nuts. Somehow you seem to feel it to. Paradise, I would elevate you to Joe Dirt status. (that would make the DML Dennis Miller and all of us serority girls). You captivated the community and had (well, some of us) glued to your story. We should have all been outside the shop with signs, chanting your name as you came out with your bike.
Anyway, hit the new tread with some pics of your one of a kind 695 and let this thing die. Ride the sh*t out of that bike and if it breaks, take it somewhere else to get it fixed. Warranty or not, I wouldn't acknowledge that this mechanic even existed anymore. I would hate to see another thread about him holding your bike and billing you for "warrantied" problems. I don't know about you, but I don't think I can handle anymore of the drama. Congrats, that is one hot bike!!!!!
Nice bike. If you ever want to sell I'll give you $4K for it. [thumbsup]
Congrats....I hope this has a happy ending !
How do you spell relief?
I'm glad you've got the bike back. It looks sweet! [thumbsup]
I too was keeping my mouth shut, but was glued to the story. Well done on the resolution. You stuck to your guns in your own way and didn't compromise your values. Everyone's got their own style. I'm glad to see yours worked out for you. [thumbsup]
Congratulations on finally getting this situation resolved. You kept your cool in what was an awesomely stressful situation.
And now, back to business: more pics! [popcorn]
Great looking bike.
I started a thread in the tech section about a major problem that I am having. Please check and help if possible. Thanks.
Just so people don't have to search for it: http://ducatimonsterworldwide.org/index.php?topic=4278.0
******sigh!!******* [roll] [roll]
Well at least it looks awesome [thumbsup] ... and I'm sure once it gets sorted out it will BE awesome too.
I know you had your problems with your mechanic and I'm not about to defend him but I think anyone who has ever done custom work can tell you three things:
1) It is always twice as complicated as it looked like it would be when you started.
2) It always takes twice as long as you planned.
3) It costs way more than you thought it would.
Oh yeah. And once you think it's finished. You spend another few weeks chasing all the gremlins out! It's not unusual. If you've been following the story of BP's bike he seems to just now be shaking the last gremlins out of it. (and it was built by the best [thumbsup])
Let's just all cross our fingers that your mechanic is a bit quicker on the "after-sale service" than he was on the build. ???
This is the thread that never ends
It goes on and on my friend.
Some people started reading not knowing what it was
And the bike would never finished because
This is the thread that never ends
It goes on and on my Friend.
some people started reading not know what it was
And the bike is done but the thread won't die because....
When it rains it pours [bang]
Update?
[popcorn]
I had seen a couple of threads in the tech board. Didn't sound like it was doing so good.
Quote from: paradisecity on June 07, 2008, 09:08:26 AM(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/IMG_0561.jpg)
Lose the side panels, that frame should be seen.
holy back from the dead batman.
Like a bad penny...Sorry to see that all is not well. Maybe an Exorcist is in order . Dolph.
New threads are here (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=4278.0) and here (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=4968.0). But really... no update... just a really really expensive 695 project bike with a clean title, SSS, smoking brakes, and an engine that cuts out.
:'(
Poor guy-had all that work done and sunk into a bike that doesn't sound like it's working.
Quote from: someguy on August 28, 2008, 08:22:08 PM
Poor guy-had all that work done and sunk into a bike that doesn't sound like it's working.
To bad because that is one bad ass looking bike---take off the side thingies---show the trellis.
Geez, that really blows. I love modding as much as the next guy, but in this case I guess my dad was right... if it ain't broke, then dont mess with it.
Interesting that this thread has been revived. I let it die though the problems certainly didn't. I was about to post a couple pics in the "pics of your bike" thread too. Might as well here...
Things are fine now. I brought it to the experts at BCM and they fixed it up. Direct quotes from Kyle were "I wouldnt trust this man to work on my wheelbarrow" and also " I would have set his shop on fire"
She runs nice now. Unfortunately I'm pretty jaded to the thing. Its sad. An expensive lesson learned. I've seriously been considering selling it and starting fresh with an 848...there will be a court aspect to this story but that day has not yet come.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/bikeback.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/bikefront.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/bikes.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/bikewheel.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/biketop.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/bikewjons.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/tomparadis/bikeside.jpg)
I know what you mean about be "jaded" after something has taken so much negative energy to get going. Really sorry your experience was soured like that. It looks great if that helps at all. Those wheels are the shizzle. An the forks too.
[bacon]
Quote from: paradisecity on August 30, 2008, 10:51:41 AM
An expensive lesson learned. I've seriously been considering selling it and starting fresh with an 848...
Er....by "starting fresh" I hope you don't mean getting a brand new bike and modding the snot out of it.
If it ain't broke......
Modding is no longer an interest of mine.
Quote from: paradisecity on August 30, 2008, 11:43:59 AM
Modding is no longer an interest of mine.
Welcome to the joys of stockdom.
if it's good now, why get rid of it?
Quote from: Magnus on August 30, 2008, 12:36:44 PM
if it's good now, why get rid of it?
Would you continue to stay in a relationship with a girl that had cheated on you?
It might be good now.
But everytime you looked at her, you'd be reminded of the bad, too.
Quote from: someguy on August 30, 2008, 12:44:28 PM
Would you continue to stay in a relationship with a girl that had cheated on you?
It might be good now.
But everytime you looked at her, you'd be reminded of the bad, too.
the bike didnt cheat on him...
its more like you sent your kid of to school and they didnt feed him/her and let other kids beat your child up. Dont sell unless its problematic.
The bike did nothing wrong. Selling the bike because of past problems, related to the mechanic does not constitute good logic.
Bike runs good from factory.
Owner desires performance and aesthetic modifications.
Owner takes bike to incompetent mechanic.
Incompetent Mechanic's work is shoddy.
Owner and Incompetent Mechanic cannot get bike to work reliably with modifications.
Owner takes bike to competent mechanics at reputable dealership.
Competent mechanics at reputable dealership solve problems.
Bike works reliably with modifications.
Logical following: OWNER DOES NOT REVISIT INCOMPETENT MECHANIC FOR ANY REASON EVER AGAIN, AND DISCOURAGES FRIENDS FROM USING INCOMPETENT MECHANIC FOR CUSTOM WORK
Owner enjoys bike that runs reliably with desired modifications.
Owner uses competent mechanics at reputable dealership to solve any problems and maintenance issues in the future.
the only negative memories the bike should bring up is how bad a mechanic the first mechanic was.
Your bike is gorgeous!! Although I understand the bad taste left in your mouth, I think you'd regret gettin' rid of her. Maybe you need a long weekend together. Go somewhere romantic, take in the sights, and rekindle your love. Find a way to start the relationship over, and forget her troubled past!! She's changed, baby, I swear she's changed!!!
Or paint the tank a different color and pretend its a new bike (this is a serious alternate suggestion).
Your bike looks great...
Quote from: He Man on August 30, 2008, 12:57:14 PM
the bike didnt cheat on him...
its more like you sent your kid of to school and they didnt feed him/her and let other kids beat your child up. Dont sell unless its problematic.
Bought bike, likes bike, has bike modded. Goes through great pains and difficulty regarding said mods. Mechanic not working to schedule, not doing work properly, and overcharging him. Get bike back, which then promptly dies a number of times, as well as having the brakes lock up. Has to eventually take it to a competent shop to fix all the issues.
Now sounds like he's facing legal action over the 'tard who did the work.
Whether or not the bike did anything wrong is moot (poor analogy on my part). Bottom line-the relationship has been tainted. Serious amount of anguish, effort, and money have been poured into this thing. At some point, given the ongoing
one thing after another, you just get sick of it. You no longer care about money invested, how it is now-you're just sick of the whole mess and want it to go away. Start over, clean slate, none of the same nonsense. That is why one ends up selling it even while it's currently working.
My question????
Why in The Hell did you farm out this type of "minor" work.....
Jeezzzz ... I question your Orientation....
You did not "MOD" the bike you wrote some checks.....Big Deal...
Also everyone is being kind by saying "Looks Awesome" heck it just looks like a nother Ducati Monster.. with a boring paint job
Some people don't have the know how or tools to do this kind of work. Just because he had someone else do the work doesn't make his mods somehow illegitimate. If you pay someone to upgrade your computer cause you don't know how, should everyone look down on you for not doing it yourself. I'm a carpenter and have done extensive remodeling/improving of my home. If someone pays a contractor to remodel their home should I say it sucks because they didn't do it themself? You probably love any mods you've done to your bike and that's great! Let others enjoy theirs.
Quote from: myssrhl on August 30, 2008, 04:07:57 PM
My question????
Why in The Hell did you farm out this type of "minor" work.....
Jeezzzz ... I question your Orientation....
You did not "MOD" the bike you wrote some checks.....Big Deal...
Also everyone is being kind by saying "Looks Awesome" heck it just looks like a nother Ducati Monster.. with a boring paint job
Cuz I have no garage or tools and can't wrench?
I decided what I wanted to do to my bike and planned it out and did all of the leg work figuring out what would fit where and how and in what way. Sorry I am not skilled enough to put it together.
As far as the look, I made it for me, not for you. I think it looks mean. You are welcome to differ. How you choose to display your difference of opinion, however, speaks volumes.
Practically the entire forum has followed this thread for months now.
It's like a soap opera.
I'm waiting for someone to sleep with the gardener.
And will we ever find out whose baby it is.
You can't come in at the end and expect to know what's going on.
I for one, congratulate Paradisecity.
He stuck it out, went the distance, had more self control than half of the forum(see pages 3-7).
I personally think the bike came out looking fantastic, and hope he gets every penny back in the lawsuit.
Don't look at it as tarnished, look at it as EARNED!
Quote from: paradisecity on August 30, 2008, 07:05:46 PM
As far of the look, I made it for me, not for you. I think it looks mean. You are welcome to differ. How you choose to display your difference of opinion, however, speaks volumes.
+1 [thumbsup]
Quote from: Bun-bun on August 30, 2008, 07:59:36 PM
I for one, congratulate Paradisecity.
He stuck it out, went the distance, had more self control than half of the forum(see pages 3-7).
I personally think the bike came out looking fantastic, and hope he gets every penny back in the lawsuit.
Don't look at it as tarnished, look at it as EARNED!
+11 tyb [moto]
Quote from: myssrhl on August 30, 2008, 04:07:57 PM
My question????
Why in The Hell did you farm out this type of "minor" work.....
Jeezzzz ... I question your Orientation....
You did not "MOD" the bike you wrote some checks.....Big Deal...
Also everyone is being kind by saying "Looks Awesome" heck it just looks like a nother Ducati Monster.. with a boring paint job
[roll] troll. [roll]
So i guess if you don't do everything yourself you're gay?
does that make half the people in this board gay as well?
just look at Magnus's bike, custom built by Mark at motocreations. or the SS2R, built from scratch by Flightcycles. They didn't have the time or experience to make the bike they wanted, so they took it to someone who did.
Sadly not everyone can remove an engine from a frame or put the wiring harness back on.
I believe that the bike looks great and you have to applaud the man's self control. I for one would be in jail if it was me.
PC, you will never get anywhere near what the bike is worth (aftermarket parts and mods do very little to raise resale value, thats why most remove them before sale and sell them seperately. Since you no longer have the oem parts this is not an option for you) Keep the bike, enjoy the heck out of it, use the lawsuit money(if you ever see any of it) and get an 848. I think everyone should have a Monster and a SBK [thumbsup]
If you lost confidence in the bike, logical or not, selling it makes sense. Unless, of course, you get that confidence back. Since Kyle, one of the best, is now on the job i would suggest giving the bike a second chance. Once debugged I think you will have a sweet machine.
Quote from: howie on August 31, 2008, 10:13:08 AM
If you lost confidence in the bike, logical or not, selling it makes sense. Unless, of course, you get that confidence back. Since Kyle, one of the best, is now on the job i would suggest giving the bike a second chance. Once debugged I think you will have a sweet machine.
I agree with howie give it a 2nd chance, Its a one of a kind machine now and is absolutely amazing looking!! Enjoy it!!
http://burlington.craigslist.org/mcy/823585402.html
It can't hurt to throw it out there.
I went and did Tracy Road over in New York yesterday (6, near Witherbee) And the bike felt good. It was down in the corners real easy (the dropped weight probably helped this) and despite it being my first technical ride of the season (how sad is that) I thought I fared ok. Got myself into the kill zone a couple times though so I need to improve a lot there.
Don't sell the bike, it looks awesome! Not everything comes together how we want but the end product is stunning! Ride the snot out of it.
Absolutely keep it. You'll not get near what you've put into it and won't even approach what you paid stock for it. Why lose even more cash when you can now finally ride and enjoy it?
I am going to keep it unless I am offered enough money to make it worth it to me to let go. If I did let it go I'd be taking a bath but there would be benefits and drawbacks to both sides.
If you don't want it i'll trade you straight up for my s2r.